The young man's career advice thread
#21
I give you an example, I come from a country where our second-biggest city doesn't even have an electrician and not to speak about other trades! (ok it is 30'000 inhabitants big, but if we take in the surroundings, we are at 50'000 people and NO electrician). However, we have like TONS of doctors. I would advice against finances as I see a big move towards AI. So trade or coding might actually be good.
Reply
#22
(12-13-2019, 07:58 AM)TheSignal Wrote: Learn to code. Don't go to college. There is plenty of free education online. Contribute to open source projects to build experience. Otherwise learn a trade if this isn't practical.

I'm a software engineer.

On point, but contributing to open source is very overrated. It's working for free. I'll let the rich guys who have time to work for free do that stuff. The guys who have the time to do open source generally don't have social lives outside of work, or are married and need a hobby outside of wife.

Do freelance work to build experience.
Do a coding bootcamp.
Do a community college course, but don't bother with 4 year.

It isn't for everyone. Some guys are just too oriented toward being social to put their heads down and code. I could tell you as many guys as have taken my route and succeeded have also failed. Also a misnomer that all coders are introverts, I'm definitely not an introvert but I enjoy building stuff. On the other hand, a lot of guys are too ADHD to be engineers and that's what it comes down to. I've known failed engineers transition into product management where they are better suited.

I personally enjoy it and love building stuff. The way I'm treated in terms of salary and job opportunities is a whole different world from when I worked in marketing. I can pretty much dictate a lot of the terms of my work because I'm hard to replace.

(12-13-2019, 08:10 AM)Smash Wrote: I hear "learn to code" so often that I have to call it out. Does that really fulfill you guys? Kudos if it does but I wonder if you know how good it feels to bust your ass all day in the sun, or fuck that, the wind in the rain. At the end of the day you stand back and see what you've accomplished and if you've done your job right it'll be standing long after you're dead. There's entire threads here and on another forum which shall remain nameless dedicated to boosting your testosterone, or god forbid, taking shots of it artificially. Go get your hands dirty instead.

You should meet guys who do outdoor physical labor, like welding or working on an oil rig. I've known a lot of these guys. They're very tired. Generally, by the time they reach their 40s, they can barely function without napping in the middle of the day.

I just wouldn't glorify physical labor, especially as you get older.
Reply
#23
(12-13-2019, 04:46 PM)fullthrottle Wrote:
(12-13-2019, 08:10 AM)Smash Wrote: I hear "learn to code" so often that I have to call it out. Does that really fulfill you guys? Kudos if it does but I wonder if you know how good it feels to bust your ass all day in the sun, or fuck that, the wind in the rain. At the end of the day you stand back and see what you've accomplished and if you've done your job right it'll be standing long after you're dead. There's entire threads here and on another forum which shall remain nameless dedicated to boosting your testosterone, or god forbid, taking shots of it artificially. Go get your hands dirty instead.

You should meet guys who do outdoor physical labor, like welding or working on an oil rig. I've known a lot of these guys. They're very tired. Generally, by the time they reach their 40s, they can barely function without napping in the middle of the day.

I just wouldn't glorify physical labor, especially as you get older.

I'm 36. I know plenty. My Dad has worked hard his whole life... my brother is a rigger. My Dad cat naps during his lunch hour AND after work. He eats strict organic Paleo but I doubt he's ever heard the term. He's the leanest, strongest, happiest and healthiest 62 year old man I've ever seen. He could kick your ass.
Reply
#24
(12-13-2019, 06:59 PM)Smash Wrote:
(12-13-2019, 04:46 PM)fullthrottle Wrote:
(12-13-2019, 08:10 AM)Smash Wrote: I hear "learn to code" so often that I have to call it out. Does that really fulfill you guys? Kudos if it does but I wonder if you know how good it feels to bust your ass all day in the sun, or fuck that, the wind in the rain. At the end of the day you stand back and see what you've accomplished and if you've done your job right it'll be standing long after you're dead. There's entire threads here and on another forum which shall remain nameless dedicated to boosting your testosterone, or god forbid, taking shots of it artificially. Go get your hands dirty instead.

You should meet guys who do outdoor physical labor, like welding or working on an oil rig. I've known a lot of these guys. They're very tired. Generally, by the time they reach their 40s, they can barely function without napping in the middle of the day.

I just wouldn't glorify physical labor, especially as you get older.

I'm 36. I know plenty. My Dad has worked hard his whole life... my brother is a rigger. My Dad cat naps during his lunch hour AND after work. He eats strict organic Paleo but I doubt he's ever heard the term. He's the leanest, strongest, happiest and healthiest 62 year old man I've ever seen. He could kick your ass.

I guess your dad is more successful than I am being that I earned my way from fast food and crummy retail jobs to earning 6 figures as a software engineer without a comp sci degree.

I come from the rust belt where most people are trying to get their kids out of having to work shitty manual labor and factory jobs because they see those jobs drying up everywhere. That's just my mentality. It's not something to aspire for your children, you want to equip them to have a better life for themselves...

Ironically, I live in Texas, and a lot of the oil economy reeks of what destroyed my hometown of Detroit... Texans will need to live and learn when the bottom falls out on those jobs as they're automated away in the near future.
Reply
#25
(12-13-2019, 09:05 AM)roberto Wrote:
(12-13-2019, 08:10 AM)Smash Wrote: I hear "learn to code" so often that I have to call it out. Does that really fulfill you guys? Kudos if it does but I wonder if you know how good it feels to bust your ass all day in the sun, or fuck that, the wind in the rain. At the end of the day you stand back and see what you've accomplished and if you've done your job right it'll be standing long after you're dead. There's entire threads here and on another forum which shall remain nameless dedicated to boosting your testosterone, or god forbid, taking shots of it artificially. Go get your hands dirty instead.

This. You took the words out of my mouth. Code monkeys in India are a dime a dozen. Real world skills are in decline.

Now, if you can code AND have specific technical knowledge- you will do very well indeed.

Everyone literally told me this 10 years ago. Glad I didn't listen. The fact is that automation is going to replace most white collar jobs as software is eating the world. Sometimes life isn't about doing what you love, but what you are capable of that puts food on the table. Most of my peers are f'd for life now because they followed the do what you love path and have no skills, lots of debt, and are basically socialists.
Reply
#26
Electrical Engineering degree with some mentor who is both an engineer and a successful business owner.
Massive use and specialization and money whether as an employee, consultant or even business owner.
Really intellectually stimulating and challenging (but not impossible like people make it sound to be)
Become a invaluable person of skill and purpose and always be working at the front fore of the latest technology and wave of innovation (whether at a massive scale or individually focused)

I can write about it in a thread or comments if there's enough interest
Reply
#27
(12-18-2019, 03:46 AM)Christoff Wrote: Become a invaluable person of skill and purpose and always be working at the front fore of the latest technology and wave of innovation (whether at a massive scale or individually focused)

I can write about it in a thread or comments if there's enough interest

Yes, please do. I'm currently in a specialized area that's very stimulating with decent money and travel, though with technology shifts I'm not sure this market gap will be open beyond another 10 years or so. Plus the hours are kinda nuts and not sure whether I wanna be putting up with them with a family around. Hence I'm looking at other options down the road.
Reply
#28
Some things I've learned about the workforce (that I didn't know as a young man starting out):

Your first 1-3 years on the job are usually shitty. There are too many job-seekers fighting for positions that don't require much skill or experience, which suppresses wages. At this point, the name of the game is ENDURANCE. Tough it out. They are trying to thin out the herd because they can't take you all. And they won't pay you much attention because 90-99% of you won't be here this time next year. It's just a test. You need to put your head down and learn all you can. 

Years 3-5 are where you start becoming a more precious commodity. You begin to get promotions into more meaningful positions. You begin to get hit up by recruiters because you are now "on the radar." You might even know wtf you're doing. This is the stage where you finally have some leverage. Companies want you and will field competitive offers to get you. You are now in company databases and systems, so you are not some unknown entity off the streets applying for their openings. You will hear of openings within your company (or industry) before the general public does, some of which will never be advertised to the general public anyway. You have actual metrics you can use on your resume to showcase your achievements. You might even have joined or attended industry events/galas/functions/conventions and become better known industry-wide. 

Tl;Dr: You're worth jack to most employers until around 3-5 years in. Stay humble, work hard, persevere, and commit. Your options (and freedoms) will grow as your skills and connections do. But you can't be afraid to eat shit at first.
Reply
#29
It’s a common misconception about the blue collar trades that you’ll be “on the tools” your entire career. Many companies promote from within and will train/educate their employees and promote them within the company to management roles. There’s no reason that any guy between the ages of 18-40 shouldn’t be able to perform a labour intensive job without jeopardizing his health but I can agree that after 40 the desk jobs start looking a lot more attractive.
Reply
#30
Was debating posting this in Graft's sales thread or here.

Could use some advice. I'm a year out of college, worked in restaurants my whole life and want to get into sales. I think I'd be very good at it. I had a phone interview with this company (first ever) and I am going in person for the 2nd interview. It's outside sales for a remodeling company. Customer development representative. Here's the company: https://tinyurl.com/r2g9xj5

It's obvious they incentivise their employees to leave positive reviews. Some of the negative reviews compare the company to MLM, a cult, etc. A big enphasis on "drinking the kool-aid." While I feel like I should just give it a chance since I'm young, I also don't want to waste my time unnecessarily with the wrong company.

I've been sending my resume through Indeed to various sales positions. Many of them want prerequisite experience, which makes me want to just take the job so I can put that on my resume. But I'd love to hear any off-the-beaten-path ways I could be applying to jobs besides Indeed, to really maximize my potential to find something better.
Reply
#31
(01-12-2020, 05:23 AM)Navyblue42 Wrote: Was debating posting this in Graft's sales thread or here.

Could use some advice. I'm a year out of college, worked in restaurants my whole life and want to get into sales. I think I'd be very good at it. I had a phone interview with this company (first ever) and I am going in person for the 2nd interview. It's outside sales for a remodeling company. Customer development representative. Here's the company: https://tinyurl.com/r2g9xj5

It's obvious they incentivise their employees to leave positive reviews. Some of the negative reviews compare the company to MLM, a cult, etc. A big enphasis on "drinking the kool-aid." While I feel like I should just give it a chance since I'm young, I also don't want to waste my time unnecessarily with the wrong company.

I've been sending my resume through Indeed to various sales positions. Many of them want prerequisite experience, which makes me want to just take the job so I can put that on my resume. But I'd love to hear any off-the-beaten-path ways I could be applying to jobs besides Indeed, to really maximize my potential to find something better.

Just based on your post alone, I'd run away as fast as I could.
Reply
#32
Door to door? Bail.
They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety- Benjamin Franklin, as if you didn't know...
Reply
#33
Basically as a young man the best career advice is to go into a career where women don't really want to go in to as there's less competition for jobs.
This means there's 3 options in my opinion
1. A trade
2. Coding
3. Sales (No experience with this only from what I've read)

I've done a 'trade' and didn't really fit in as i'm not really suited for the job. The job I did was merchant navy trainee officer.
If you follow the trajectory once qualified in 10 years you could be earning 6 figures on a 3 month on/off basis. However if you choose this option try and get in the passenger ship industry as you actually have a life while on board, and there's good food and women etc. I worked on a cargo ship and hated it, as food was shit, shore time was limited, (even more so once you're an officer) and no girls on board.

I'm now a software developer as it's more suited for me. The advantages are you can teach yourself and get a job
with no experience, I don't know what other industries you can do that in. Now I have experience I get recruiters hit me up all the time, and i'm hoping in the future I can get a job or freelance so I can have the freedom to travel anywhere I want or just be able to take extended breaks from time to time.
Reply
#34
(01-12-2020, 05:23 AM)Navyblue42 Wrote: Was debating posting this in Graft's sales thread or here.

Could use some advice. I'm a year out of college, worked in restaurants my whole life and want to get into sales. I think I'd be very good at it. I had a phone interview with this company (first ever) and I am going in person for the 2nd interview. It's outside sales for a remodeling company. Customer development representative. Here's the company: https://tinyurl.com/r2g9xj5

It's obvious they incentivise their employees to leave positive reviews. Some of the negative reviews compare the company to MLM, a cult, etc. A big enphasis on "drinking the kool-aid." While I feel like I should just give it a chance since I'm young, I also don't want to waste my time unnecessarily with the wrong company.

I've been sending my resume through Indeed to various sales positions. Many of them want prerequisite experience, which makes me want to just take the job so I can put that on my resume. But I'd love to hear any off-the-beaten-path ways I could be applying to jobs besides Indeed, to really maximize my potential to find something better.

What did you get your degree in, and how prestigious would you describe the school you went to?  Also, what kind of work did you do at restaurants?   Your kind of playing catchup because you should have gotten good internships with worthwhile experience while you were in college. 

I worked for one of these "remodeling" companies in high school.  They churn through employees like crazy.  Some of them will let you work weekends and evenings only, so you could get it as a second job if you really want to try it out.  I thought it was a waste of time and it was incredibly sleazy.

An alternative to having lots of sales experience on your resume can entail demonstrating you have expertise in the feild you are selling in.
Reply
#35
(01-12-2020, 05:23 AM)Navyblue42 Wrote: Was debating posting this in Graft's sales thread or here.

Could use some advice. I'm a year out of college, worked in restaurants my whole life and want to get into sales. I think I'd be very good at it. I had a phone interview with this company (first ever) and I am going in person for the 2nd interview. It's outside sales for a remodeling company. Customer development representative. Here's the company: https://tinyurl.com/r2g9xj5

It's obvious they incentivise their employees to leave positive reviews. Some of the negative reviews compare the company to MLM, a cult, etc. A big enphasis on "drinking the kool-aid." While I feel like I should just give it a chance since I'm young, I also don't want to waste my time unnecessarily with the wrong company.

I've been sending my resume through Indeed to various sales positions. Many of them want prerequisite experience, which makes me want to just take the job so I can put that on my resume. But I'd love to hear any off-the-beaten-path ways I could be applying to jobs besides Indeed, to really maximize my potential to find something better.

I used to work in the food industry too. Either cold call (demonstrate you have skills), ask your friends if they know someone in sales (warm sales), or go to sales job fairs (in person snap judgements). I've submitted maybe 100 resumes and job apps and only got 3-4 phone interviews (that I then bomb). Graft said at least one time that a battle hardened sales manager turned him down so he remembered that. When the manager reached out to him later he gave him a text speak response (these are so called professionals that can't detect that if you want something badly you will move heaven and earth to get it). In the food industry they teach you to be hungry and stay busy. In your situation once you get your first sales job transition into better sales jobs like pharma or medical device. I was watching a video yesterday that companies like Pfizer hire if you used to work at Enterprise Rent A Car. I'm always reskilling and demanding more. Food industry is a loser field. 



I agree with poster above me either coding or sales. I'd add study a subject that you are good at to complement sales or coding (or even both). The world is changing RAPIDLY. College IMO stopped being important decades ago, the internet makes it easy to study hard subjects. You don't want to be in a field that will be automated and/or competing with illegals like culinary arts. Unless something changed Google doesn't require a degree anymore. I'd highly recommend checking out Future Skills podcast, the book Wikinomics, and Average is Over. Wall street playboys is ok but some of their content you have to take with a grain of salt. 

As for trades, I did that for a few months but some of their work is going to be automated. Do not get me wrong, if you had the option of doing trades versus college do trades. I know someone who went to college, isn't using his degree, yet makes 6 digits doing home remodeling projects with his own business. He said he never read anything, just had to suffer with no clients for about 6 months and then from then on his business took off. 

Some people have said colleges will be going out of business this decade and that prediction will come true. The elite colleges like Harvard will remain and unis will receive funding for engineering and medical studies but SJW shit is coming to an end.

(12-18-2019, 08:30 PM)Coast2Coast Wrote: Some things I've learned about the workforce (that I didn't know as a young man starting out):

Your first 1-3 years on the job are usually shitty. There are too many job-seekers fighting for positions that don't require much skill or experience, which suppresses wages. At this point, the name of the game is ENDURANCE. Tough it out. They are trying to thin out the herd because they can't take you all. And they won't pay you much attention because 90-99% of you won't be here this time next year. It's just a test. You need to put your head down and learn all you can. 

Years 3-5 are where you start becoming a more precious commodity. You begin to get promotions into more meaningful positions. You begin to get hit up by recruiters because you are now "on the radar." You might even know wtf you're doing. This is the stage where you finally have some leverage. Companies want you and will field competitive offers to get you. You are now in company databases and systems, so you are not some unknown entity off the streets applying for their openings. You will hear of openings within your company (or industry) before the general public does, some of which will never be advertised to the general public anyway. You have actual metrics you can use on your resume to showcase your achievements. You might even have joined or attended industry events/galas/functions/conventions and become better known industry-wide. 

Tl;Dr: You're worth jack to most employers until around 3-5 years in. Stay humble, work hard, persevere, and commit. Your options (and freedoms) will grow as your skills and connections do. But you can't be afraid to eat shit at first.

/end of thread

This is my career 90% of the way. No I'm not getting hit up by recruiters or in a company databse but I ate shit for about 6 years.
Reply
#36
So I have a question for anybody who does coding or something like data science? Would you say to just teach yourself or would you say to at least have an associates in computer programming? Because I had thought about getting an associates at my local community college in computer programming/analyst.
Reply
#37
(01-13-2020, 04:57 AM)OhhhReally Wrote: So I have a question for anybody who does coding or something like data science? Would you say to just teach yourself or would you say to at least have an associates in computer programming? Because I had thought about getting an associates at my local community college in computer programming/analyst.

You need a Masters degree to do Data Science.

Computer programming is not the same thing.
A Data Scientist is like a statistician/mathematician that does programming as part of their work. Compared to a software engineer, a Data Scientist doesn't really know how to build full apps. They can build algorithms used in apps, they can dabble in building apps (I had some I hired move away from data science and toward being engineers, to no avail). Every data scientist I've hired has been a shit coder, largely because their minds are too abstract/theoretical for doing practical coding. This is someone whose more like a business analyst with tech skills.

A software engineer/programmer/developer is someone that programs as the entirety of their work. You can do this without a degree. Community college would be a good, low-cost option or a code school/bootcamp. That road to your first job will suck with either, but if you can do an internship during your community college work, I think you'll be better off.

Personally, I prefer the development side of things, even though I have a BS in a social science and half a Masters degree in a related field, I've never been interested in data science... I like building stuff. It's more manly than writing TPS reports.
Reply
#38
Thanks to everyone for their input earlier. Ended up cancelling the interview.

I had an interview Monday for an inside sales position and I got called in for training next week. Looking forward to it and definitely glad I passed on the first gig. This one seems much more promising
Reply
#39
(01-23-2020, 05:36 AM)Navyblue42 Wrote: Thanks to everyone for their input earlier. Ended up cancelling the interview.

I had an interview Monday for an inside sales position and I got called in for training next week. Looking forward to it and definitely glad I passed on the first gig. This one seems much more promising

Glad to hear it.
Reply
#40
I am a young guy myself, and I remember feeling lost and didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life when I was in high school. I was spending all my free time in front of the computer, reading, learning, playing video games, watching movies.

The education system failed, society today is very confusing for the young generation and there really aren't a lot of role models or mentors for young men anymore. The parents don't have a lot of free time to guide them, or even worse, some don't even have parents present at all.

If I were to give advice, I would ask the question: What's more important to you, making money or doing something you are passionate about? Because if you just want to make money, you must be prepared to sacrifice a lot. I'm not saying you can't make money from doing things you are passionate about, but it really depends on your goals, and as someone said earlier in the thread, your passions will rarely make you money. You need to be real with yourself, observe the direction the society is heading towards, make a plan and stick to it.

You must be willing to sacrifice a lot in the beginning, in order to get where you want. No matter what career path you choose, only by hustling hard you can get at the top. You must develop a strong work ethic from beginning to differentiate yourself from others.

Everybody is hating on programming, or any type of job that requires to sit long hours in front of a computer, but there are a lot of ways to make money online nowadays, you don't need to be a skilled programmer, the Internet is still a new thing and many people don't know how to use it properly, there are so many things you can leverage, and trust me when I say, having an online business will give you the most amount of freedom after everything is running properly.

The biggest issue I see, is that there is something really wrong with our young generation.

I am gonna be very honest and say what I think. Our generation is weak. We’re jealous. We hate hard work, demand what we don’t deserve, and crumble under the weight of the burdens that come with life. Yet, there is hope.

None of us really want to work. We want that quick ticket to success and we’ve been babied into believing the real world owes us. We have selective hearing.

We only take in what we want. We’ve become delusional idiots. Our generation is wrought with the jealousy of the have-mores. We’re the Occupy Movement: the complainers, the whiners, the jealous and the weak.

Someone once said that lazy people end up doing double the work they would have if they weren’t lazy. And that holds true.

“Old school” is a term that alludes to toughness both mental and physical. If you look at what previous generations had to go through to just put food on their table, you might realize what hard work is.

The tough, strong, old school men of today are outnumbered. We’re drowned out by the whining of the new school, as Clint puts it: the “Pussy Generation.”

But that’s fine by us, because to be old school is to be silent. It’s the old school silent warrior. The bite that far outweighs the volume of his roar. The man who understands that loose lips sinks ships.

Be old school. Don’t whine, complain or wish you were elsewhere. You are where you are for a good reason. What we have and where we are right now is where we deserve to be – good or bad. But this is not where we’re going to end up. Keep pushing.

The old school simply puts its head down, doesn’t complain, and out-hustles those who do. It’s life; it’s simple.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)