Crypto thread
#61
shitcoins getting crushed still lol.
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#62
(08-18-2019, 09:55 PM)Swordfish1010 Wrote: shitcoins getting crushed still lol.

That seems to be the current trend, but surely it can feel as if it is taking a god-damned long time for the purging to play out, and of course a lot of shit coin bag HODLers are waiting for an alt-coin season that may or may not come.

Personally, I have a very hard time to either bet against altcoins, or to expect that they will not be pumped again, even though it still remains difficult to know when or which ones, assuming that such hopium pumpening of crapium coins does end up happening again.  Lot of snot-nosed 14 year olds praying these days.  hahahahhahaha
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#63
(08-18-2019, 10:04 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:
(08-18-2019, 09:55 PM)Swordfish1010 Wrote: shitcoins getting crushed still lol.

That seems to be the current trend, but surely it can feel as if it is taking a god-damned long time for the purging to play out, and of course a lot of shit coin bag HODLers are waiting for an alt-coin season that may or may not come.

Personally, I have a very hard time to either bet against altcoins, or to expect that they will not be pumped again, even though it still remains difficult to know when or which ones, assuming that such hopium pumpening of crapium coins does end up happening again.  Lot of snot-nosed 14 year olds praying these days.  hahahahhahaha

They are still pretending we are in 2017.

People are underestimating how big the BAKKT physical futures will be. To the moon.
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#64
(08-18-2019, 10:08 PM)Swordfish1010 Wrote:
(08-18-2019, 10:04 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:
(08-18-2019, 09:55 PM)Swordfish1010 Wrote: shitcoins getting crushed still lol.

That seems to be the current trend, but surely it can feel as if it is taking a god-damned long time for the purging to play out, and of course a lot of shit coin bag HODLers are waiting for an alt-coin season that may or may not come.

Personally, I have a very hard time to either bet against altcoins, or to expect that they will not be pumped again, even though it still remains difficult to know when or which ones, assuming that such hopium pumpening of crapium coins does end up happening again.  Lot of snot-nosed 14 year olds praying these days.  hahahahhahaha

They are still pretending we are in 2017.

People are underestimating how big the BAKKT physical futures will be. To the moon.

Surely, I agree with you that there are a decent number of people who are either buying into a kind of story that alt-seasons are inevitable, and surely this could cause a lot of money to get purged from those folks, if the alt season does not actually come in any kind of way that is even close to 2017.

Regarding BAKKT:  I also have not been attributing much to that.  Are you talking about the late September launch?  I believe that it is scheduled for something like September 23.

By the way, I sufficiently stocked up on my BTC a long while back, and I am o.k. with even mediocre BTC price performance to make me happy - including the fact that I am already happy, so another 2x, 5x, 10x or 100x or whatever would merely be icing on the cake for me - even though I would probably have to reconsider how to go from being merely regularly rich into a kind of filthy rich status...   Blush  First world problems.     Angel
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#65
(08-18-2019, 09:29 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote: Here's a nice little tweet, and the poster, Melik Manukyan, has a lot of interesting followers, too.

https://twitter.com/melikmanukyan/status...7162462208

[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0x4YNIr.j...RUIa7ZPG6Q]

Haha, yeah sure. Tell that to the teams building decentralized finance projects and those putting substantial capital into them:

https://defipulse.com/

https://defipulse.com/defi-list

Looks to me the one thing in common between Bitcoin cultists and Ethereum enthusiasts is that both can't stop talking about Ethereum. Wink
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#66
(08-19-2019, 12:50 AM)billydingdong Wrote:
(08-18-2019, 09:29 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote: Here's a nice little tweet, and the poster, Melik Manukyan, has a lot of interesting followers, too.

https://twitter.com/melikmanukyan/status...7162462208

[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0x4YNIr.j...RUIa7ZPG6Q]

Haha, yeah sure. Tell that to the teams building decentralized finance projects and those putting substantial capital into them:

https://defipulse.com/

https://defipulse.com/defi-list

Yes.  Hopefully, for your sake, these matters are able to work out in the coming years, depending on what is your timeline and how long you are going to grant for the possible pumpening or set of pumpenings that hopefully end up being more than vaporware.

(08-19-2019, 12:50 AM)billydingdong Wrote: Looks to me the one thing in common between Bitcoin cultists and Ethereum enthusiasts is that both can't stop talking about Ethereum. Wink

Don't let matters get to your head before they actually happen with some kind of material and concrete result, beyond people supposedly working on something good.

  The mere fact that bitcoin people like to make compare/contrasts regarding ethereum does relate to a marketing campaign that ethereum has been engaged in for a bit more than 3 years, and surely at some point any marketing campaign will have more difficulties to gain traction if there is not any there there or if impressions cannot be made in the minds of possible investors about some actual substance, besides a need for gullible people to buy into the "future" product that is "projected to be."

Also, don't get me wrong, if at some point, it appears that another shit coin pumpening is taking place, that includes ethereum, there will likely be a decent number of guys coming out of the woodwork to get in on the possible get rich quick scheme(s) and the hope that such pumpening, if it happens, is going to last long enough for them to get both in and out and to make some money along the way.
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#67
(08-19-2019, 12:50 AM)billydingdong Wrote:
(08-18-2019, 09:29 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote: Here's a nice little tweet, and the poster, Melik Manukyan, has a lot of interesting followers, too.

https://twitter.com/melikmanukyan/status...7162462208

[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0x4YNIr.j...RUIa7ZPG6Q]

Haha, yeah sure. Tell that to the teams building decentralized finance projects and those putting substantial capital into them:

https://defipulse.com/

https://defipulse.com/defi-list

Looks to me the one thing in common between Bitcoin cultists and Ethereum enthusiasts is that both can't stop talking about Ethereum. Wink
Theranos 2.0 lol
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#68
(08-19-2019, 06:28 PM)Swordfish1010 Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 12:50 AM)billydingdong Wrote:
(08-18-2019, 09:29 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote: Here's a nice little tweet, and the poster, Melik Manukyan, has a lot of interesting followers, too.

https://twitter.com/melikmanukyan/status...7162462208

[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0x4YNIr.j...RUIa7ZPG6Q]

Haha, yeah sure. Tell that to the teams building decentralized finance projects and those putting substantial capital into them:

https://defipulse.com/

https://defipulse.com/defi-list

Looks to me the one thing in common between Bitcoin cultists and Ethereum enthusiasts is that both can't stop talking about Ethereum. Wink
Theranos 2.0 lol

That reminds me too.  When the pumpening of the altcoins start, which may or may not include ethereum (probably will include ethereum, because they seem to remain pretty good at marketing vaporware), the guys who come out of the woodwork are going to be coming out and blasting bitcoiners because we are only making 4x, or 8x or 20x, and "in theory" they are making 2x or 3x of the returns that we are making.  Hopefully, though, they are able to get out before the whole matter comes crashing down.. .so if the matter ebbs and flows for a while or funds get locked up or guys are waiting for another pumpening, they can get caught on the wrong side of a trade.  In that regard, currently, if you look at bitcoin's 2 year performance, you see 160% to the positive, and if you look at Ethereum, you have 37% in the negative.

Sure, there were periods of time in which ethereum had outperformed bitcoin, but if you did not get out, then you are merely waiting for the next pumpening, which billydingdong believes is going to happen based on BIG and supposedly "smart" entities getting involved - but as Swordfish suggests, there were BIG and supposedly smart investors who were investing in Theranos, also, but that did not stop them from getting taken through the ringer, with inabilities to unload their bags when the flaws (or the vaporware) was discovered.

At least billydingdong only has about 3% of his value invested into ethereum, but it still seems so strange to me to invest such a possibly decent amount into ethereum because you understand that it is related to bitcoin (but supposedly better.. hahahahaha), yet admit to having no holdings at all in bitcoin, even though bitcoin remains the more sound of the monies.. and the likely location for long term value to flow rather than based on vaporware, which was the underlying idea of the Melik Manukyan tweet (that billydingdong seems to not accept as a fair representation of the current status and marketing campaign of ethereum).
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#69
I would like to clarify a few of my earlier representations based on my realization that ETH has been around for more than 5 years.

Earlier I had said that ETH had been marketing their bullshit for more than 3 years, and really, they have been marketing their bullshit from their start more than 5 years ago, because surely they have had a marketing budget since their beginnings (that is how they had been designed).  Furthermore, such marketing would have been much further enabled based on such pumpening of their coin through that period.

Also, in my above post, I had mentioned ETH's price performance in the past 2 years, and I had not realized that there were price charts in the 5 year time frame on bitfinex, so currently, if you look at ethereum's price performance, as compared to bitcoin's in the past 5 years, you will see very similar percentage performance - however, 5 years ago (in mid 2014), bitcoin was more than 5 years old and probably having had been traded for several years, and in mid-2014 bitcoin was in the midst of a price correction period that ended up lasting nearly 2 years after mid-2014, and ethereum would have been in its "hardly having a price" stages, so I would still question whether the 5 year time frame  for bitcoin as compared with ethereum would be very representative of actual fundamentals, and surely there are quite a few folks out there who remain inclined towards marketing ethereum and arguing that ethereum has some kind of equivalent or parrellel role to bitcoin, and therefore, currently ethereum is under valued, and will have another pumpening (to catch up to some more meaningful percentage of bitcoin).  

We are not yet having cocky-ass ethereum proposals of ethereum flippening of bitcoin, because it seems to be that ethereum continues to be in the doldrums of uncertainties, even regarding the solidity of its code base or even some other clogging of its network and the fact that only real BIG players are actually able to confirm ethereum's full transactional history (and there even seems to be obscurity in those kinds of confirmations of transactional  history, including the extent of premining and the issuance of those possible hidden funds that might make ethereum little better then ripple in terms of a decent amount of its supply being held off line for founders and other sources in a kind of secrecy regarding amounts.. but also as a means to cause its market cap to inflate on coinmarket cap more than it really deserves).

I do use an app called "Bitcoin ticker" to check some the historical price performance comparisons between crypto projects on differing time lines, and of course, some exchanges have a longer history than others in terms of carrying coins, and likely at some point in the coming about two years, bitcoin is going to be able to add a 10 year metric, perhaps on Bitstamp, will be amongst the first.  It looks like bitstamp has scattered trading of bitcoin that goes back to September 2011.   Of course MTGOX has older data; however, it is difficult to count that in term of compare contrast of a consistent exchange, since MTGOX closed in February 2014.   

A good site for comparing historical bitcoin exchange data is Bitcoincharts.com (here's some late 2011 bitstamp/bitcoin data). I don't see other coins listed on bitcoincharts.com, but who cares (very much) about other coins?  hahahahahahaha
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#70
(08-19-2019, 07:07 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote: That reminds me too.  When the pumpening of the altcoins start, which may or may not include ethereum (probably will include ethereum, because they seem to remain pretty good at marketing vaporware), the guys who come out of the woodwork are going to be coming out and blasting bitcoiners because we are only making 4x, or 8x or 20x, and "in theory" they are making 2x or 3x of the returns that we are making.  Hopefully, though, they are able to get out before the whole matter comes crashing down.. .so if the matter ebbs and flows for a while or funds get locked up or guys are waiting for another pumpening, they can get caught on the wrong side of a trade.  [1] In that regard, currently, if you look at bitcoin's 2 year performance, you see 160% to the positive, and if you look at Ethereum, you have 37% in the negative.

Sure, there were periods of time in which ethereum had outperformed bitcoin, but if you did not get out, then you are merely waiting for the next pumpening, which billydingdong believes is going to happen based on BIG and supposedly "smart" entities getting involved - but as Swordfish suggests, [2] there were BIG and supposedly smart investors who were investing in Theranos, also, but that did not stop them from getting taken through the ringer, with inabilities to unload their bags when the flaws (or the vaporware) was discovered.

At least billydingdong only has about 3% of his value invested into ethereum, but [3] it still seems so strange to me to invest such a possibly decent amount into ethereum because you understand that it is related to bitcoin (but supposedly better.. hahahahaha), yet admit to having no holdings at all in bitcoin, even though bitcoin remains the more sound of the monies.. and the likely location for long term value to flow rather than [4]based on vaporware, which was the underlying idea of the Melik Manukyan tweet (that billydingdong seems to not accept as a fair representation of the current status and marketing campaign of ethereum).

[1] Easy to cherry pick timeframes of relative superior performance for either asset. Right now Bitcoin is riding the high wave, but it hasn't always been that way over the last 5 years.

[2] Lol...yes, this kind of reasoning is weak: high profile enterprise partnerships supported Theranos, Theranos was a fraud, therefore enterprise partnerships aren't all that important for a project.

The reality is that increasing dev adoption and enterprise participation/partnerships are an endorsement of viability. Moreover the comparison between Ethereum and Theranos really falls apart when you consider that the Ethereum protocol is open and that all the tooling , dev meeting notes , and improvement proposals are completely open source.

[3] It's not strange at all ... because I recognize that a programmable decentralized blockchain whose coin can be used for everything from peer to peer payments to collateral to securitization has a stronger value proposition than a coin that can only be used to send and receive payments.

Also not convinced that Bitcoin's security model for 'sound money' is sustainable long-term when block rewards go down over the next 5 - 10 years.  Additionally, proof of work may not be environmentally sustainable as a consensus mechanism as energy consumption for mining continues to grow. And last, it's worth mentioning the external threat of other cryptos that continue to make progress, gain adoption, and could come to supplant Bitcoin in a similar way that broadband ISP's came to supplant AOL.

I may be wrong and these issues may prove immaterial in the end with Bitcoin remaining a 'bedrock' asset in crypto, but they are legitimate doubts and why I say Bitcoin is still speculative. In the shorter term, I'd still bet on Bitcoin having another day in the sun. In the longer term...who knows.

Finally... Ethereum is distinct from Bitcoin and not at all Bitcoin 2.0. Different platform, different governance, different ecosystem, different use cases.

[4] haha yeah I'll give more weight to the 'marketing' of the coins/projects that are actually building things over those who shout into the wind that all other coins are 'shitcoins'.

Dismissing all the development that's happening as 'vaporware' as devs and enterprise continue to march forward looks like grasping at straws.
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#71
(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote:
(08-19-2019, 07:07 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote: [edited out]

[1] Easy to cherry pick timeframes of relative superior performance for either asset. Right now Bitcoin is riding the high wave, but it hasn't always been that way over the last 5 years.

Oh god, you are coming off as desperate, at least from my perspective.

I have no problem looking at the truth of the matter in terms of either price performance or fundamentals. Bitcoin has had fucking amazing price performance over its 10 years, and I don't know how you can argue otherwise. You got a bunch of snot nosed 14 year olds hanging off the coat tails of bitcoin (referring to ethereum and the various ICO scam craze) in order to pump their bags, but also engaging in a multi-faceted coin attempt at bashing bitcoin, suggesting bitcoin is broken, creating confusion, etc etc, yet bitcoin still prevailed over the bullshit. There is no cherry picking, except maybe perhaps that we are seeing an extensive, nearly 2 year price correction, and the vast majority of shit coins, including your lil buddy ethereum, not recovering as well as bitcoin, and that is the current status.

Sure, I have already conceded that your shitcoin ethereum and/or the others might recover from this bad period for them and get pumped again, and surely they need people to have faith in them in order to get their UP momentum back. Also, like I mentioned, many folks (including myself) had some fears in the past 6-9 months that in order to purge some of the over exuberance and over value out of the various shit coins, including ethereum, they were going to continue to drag bitcoin down; however, many of us, including myself, have been relieved to see another road forward in which bitcoin's price goes up while the various shitcoins, including ethereum, fail to go up, which was an alternative scenario that seemed too good to wish for, but ultimately seems to be what is happening.

So yeah, you can assert that I am cherry picking all the fuck that you want, but the actual facts on the ground seem to show another picture, at least in the current state of affairs.

By the way billydingdong, if you have some period of time that you prefer to focus on let me know. I think looking at the present time is very relevant, but hey, if you believe that some kind of case can be made for another focus time frame than let me know, and I will consider your proposed framework to the extent that it does not come off as your own bit of cherry picking wishful thinking that involves deceptions and misrepresentations.

Also, I set forth my description of facts, inferences, logic, conclusions, and opinions, but surely I am not locked into my point of view if some better facts, inferences, logic, conclusions, and opinions are presented.


(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: [2] Lol...yes, this kind of reasoning is weak: high profile enterprise partnerships supported Theranos, Theranos was a fraud, therefore enterprise partnerships aren't all that important for a project.

I doubt that either Swordfish or I is (am) arguing that the investment of BIG capital would not be important to any project, but surely the investment of BIG capital is not necessarily going to save you from certain kinds of money pit scams.

(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: The reality is that increasing dev adoption and enterprise participation/partnerships are an endorsement of viability.

Hopefully, for your own sake, you are correct or at least sufficiently correct that you are able to profit from whatever ponzi scheme pumpening ends up happening from such BIG enterprise interest and willing to invest in such shittiness.

(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Moreover the comparison between Ethereum and Theranos really falls apart when you consider that the Ethereum protocol is open and that all the tooling , dev meeting notes , and improvement proposals are completely open source.

Sure, that open source nature is a differentiation, but I doubt that it is going to be a differentiation that is sufficient to save Ethereum from its quagmire of a mess of multiple projects attempting to coordinate in the creation of a experimental project (referring to pie in the sky ethereum 2.0) that does not yet exist and to say that it is going to be the best, blah blah blah. including trying to suggest that it is some kind of equivalent to bitcoin or that bitcoin is deficient in various ways that is going to be made up by a vapourware multi-faceted improvement platform that does not yet exist except in the minds of a bunch of genius snot nosed 14-year olds.

(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: [3] It's not strange at all ... because I recognize that a programmable decentralized blockchain whose coin can be used for everything from peer to peer payments to collateral to securitization has a stronger value proposition than a coin that can only be used to send and receive payments.

Well, at least you are confirming your conviction, which causes me to tentatively conclude that either you don't understand what bitcoin is or that you have too high of a belief in what ethereum can supposedly accomplish. But, either way, you are a BIG boy, and therefore, you can make your own decisions regarding how to allocate your capital, and perhaps you will achieve better price performance than bitcoin... perhaps? I have my doubts, and so that is part of the reason that I am so shocked that you would not put some value in bitcoin, but I also realize that there are quite a few shitcoin bagholders who have been more than willing to ride their various shitcoin to the ground, whether that is ethereum or one (or some) of the other multitude of shitcoins that seem to continue to lose considerable value compared to bitcoin on a regular basis in recent times (cherry picking or not), and so in some sense, I don't really mind the purging of value of the various shitcoiners, and surely you seem to only have 3%, and some people may be able to recover from whatever burn that they get from this ongoing purging, and maybe some of the shitcoiners will end up being correct and coming out in the positive if they can hang onto their bags long enough and another alt season does end up coming as the overwhelming levels of hopium seem to be repeating in the space, from one bagholder to another hoping to keep the price of their shit up while the value continues to slowly and ongoingly get purged, and some people believe that they cannot go any lower, and then they do end up going lower, and lower, and lower... go figure?

I surely do not have any crystal ball regarding when the purging is going to stop or if it is going to stop, but I ended up inevitably having to follow these kinds of shit projects, even though I am in bitcoin - because they have been ongoing attack vectors to bitcoin, but they have also brought some value into the space by bringing in money that in some ways seem to gravitate over to bitcoin (not always because sometimes the money would go out of bitcoin and into the shit projects, too).

(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Also not convinced that Bitcoin's security model for 'sound money' is sustainable long-term when block rewards go down over the next 5 - 10 years.  

Well, at least you are talking about the more immediate future, rather than projecting out 100 year from now... so that is an improvement in your position. I doubt that we are either going to have a problem in the next 15 years or even longer down the road because BTC's adoption is likely to continue to increase and the BTC price is likely to continue to go up, but we will have to see.

Halvening in the coming years will affect the reward:

May 2020 6.25 BTC per block which is every 10 minutes so 6 blocks per hour x 24 hours per day x 365 days per year = 52,560 blocks per year = about 328,500 new BTC per year

May 2024-2028 3.125 BTC per block = about 164,250 new BTC per year

May 2028-2032 1.5625 BTC per block = about 82,125 new BTC per year

May 2032-2036 .078125 BTC per block = about 41,062.5 new BTC per year


(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Additionally, proof of work may not be environmentally sustainable as a consensus mechanism as energy consumption for mining continues to grow.

Wishful thinking nonsensical talking point. Bitcoin's energy consumption likely inspires attempts to look for cheap energy sources and more efficient use of various forms of energy.

Proof of work is the killer invention that bitcoin was able to put as a core element of its system, and the world has never seen such a magnanimous way to create incentives to mine and to keep dishonest folks in check.


(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: And last, it's worth mentioning the external threat of other cryptos that continue to make progress, gain adoption, and could come to supplant Bitcoin in a similar way that broadband ISP's came to supplant AOL.

Yes.. that's your hope, and I doubt that it is going to happen. Yeah, you can look at coinmarket cap and various metrics, and likely there are going to be other projects such as stable coins and libra and other bullshit that are put in there to dilute the appearance of bitcoin's power, but who fucking cares. Also who cares if there were an ethereum flippening if it continues to be merely pumped as a kind of ponzi vaporware scheme of little to no value.


(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: I may be wrong and these issues may prove immaterial in the end with Bitcoin remaining a 'bedrock' asset in crypto, but they are legitimate doubts and why I say Bitcoin is still speculative.

Of course, bitcoin is speculative, but bitcoin remains the foundation of the cryptos, and the mere reason that any of the various cryptos have any value at all. If another one of more importance comes onto the scene, then that would be interesting, but the only thing that allows your stupid ass shit coins from dying right away is the fact that bitcoin secures the whole space with the power of its decentralized and immutable network that remains quite difficult to stop or effectively attack.

(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: In the shorter term, I'd still bet on Bitcoin having another day in the sun. In the longer term...who knows.

Of course, it is going to have another day in the sun. Currently it has nothing that even comes close to it, even with some of the artificial attempts to make the market cap of other projects or shitcoins to look like they are close to bitcoin, but in the end, there is no there there with the other coins, and so far the piece of shit ethereum has the closest position in terms of actual value being transacted and utilization, but I wonder how long that is going to last.

Bitcoin actually continues to grow, even during the period in which various alts were supposedly catching up, so I don't really know how you can reasonably conclude that there is anything that is even close to bitcoin, and good luck to ethereum being able to transition into ethereum 2.0, because it seems that 1.0 is so goddamned broken that they need a 2.0, but it remains quite questionable if 2.0 is going to get off the ground, beyond just a bunch of continued baloney mumbo jumbo attempts to make it look like it is actually working, this time.

(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Finally... Ethereum is distinct from Bitcoin and not at all Bitcoin 2.0. Different platform, different governance, different ecosystem, different use cases.

Well, yeah, sometimes ethereum tries to act like it is different and other times it tries to act like it is the same, so who fucking knows. We will see if there is much if any room left for it, especially as bitcoin will likely absorb some of ethereum's proposed use cases and also shitcoins like facebook coin will likely eat ethereum's lunch, if such facebook coin does actually issue, and also it does seem that ethereum has way more competitors than bitcoin, anyhow.. but yeah, we will see. We will see.


(08-22-2019, 09:42 PM)billydingdong Wrote: [4] haha yeah I'll give more weight to the 'marketing' of the coins/projects that are actually building things over those who shout into the wind that all other coins are 'shitcoins'.

Dismissing all the development that's happening as 'vaporware' as devs and enterprise continue to march forward looks like grasping at straws.

O.k. maybe I should give you and your shitcoin buddy (aka ethereum) a bit more benefit of the doubt in terms of the value that it (they) add to the space in terms of test networks and the ability to attract some investment into the space, even if a bunch of scams had resulted. Also, there were likely more millionnaires or multi-millionnaires made out of ethereum and ICOs and various scam projects a lot quicker than in bitcoin, as long as they were able to hang onto their money and maybe to somewhat diversify out of the various losing value shit projects.

Anyhow, yes, I look forward to actual use cases from the various shitcoins, and surely the ERC20 token phenomenon brought in some kinds of value into the space in terms of attracting a lot of investment and even innovative ways of investing and attracting value from what would have otherwise been considered unqualified investors to make a lot of money for projects very quickly and ERC20 fundamentals (as an investment vehicle or a quick way to build scams) largely has been standing up to cause the spurring of a lot of projects including scams that were able to be made and perhaps even a few legitimate projects (or parts of projects) that may later get absorbed into bitcoin. There is no lack of action in the scam space, even if I may be overgeneralizing a bit, just to emphasize my point, yet there still might be some people or projects that are not quite as scammy as others and may have also had good (non-scammy) intentions. Perhaps?
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#72
(08-22-2019, 11:09 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote: Oh god, you are coming off as desperate, at least from my perspective.

I have no problem looking at the truth of the matter in terms of either price performance or fundamentals.   Bitcoin has had fucking amazing price performance over its 10 years, and I don't know how you can argue otherwise.  You got a bunch of snot nosed 14 year olds hanging off the coat tails of bitcoin (referring to ethereum and the various ICO scam craze) in order to pump their bags, but also engaging in a multi-faceted coin attempt at bashing bitcoin, suggesting bitcoin is broken, creating confusion, etc etc, yet bitcoin still prevailed over the bullshit.  There is no cherry picking, except maybe perhaps that we are seeing an extensive, nearly 2 year price correction,  and the vast majority of shit coins, including your lil buddy ethereum, not recovering as well as bitcoin, and that is the current status.  

....

Not arguing that Bitcoin hasn't had excellent price performance... For now, it's the crypto bellweather, annd I've made the case for why it may remain relevant.

But I'm talking about which asset is the better bet to speculate on now and going forward.

And for speculative purposes, I'd say the returns over 2017 are more relevant than price performance of today as that was a massive adoption cycle for crypto where all time highs in all crypto assets were reached. As of now Ether is further down from all time high while it has more developers, more enterprise, more impressive projects (notably in decentralized finance), more utility, planned protocol improvements, while still boasting significant adoption (though of course, not at Bitcoin's level).

So yeah from a price perspective, I'm much more interested in what happens in the next major run-up based on what happened in the previous run-up and where we are relative to all time high. No denying, however, that Bitcoin's price resilience is a good sign and good for crypto, including Ethereum.

JayJuanGee Wrote:Bitcoin actually continues to grow, even during the period in which various alts were supposedly catching up, so I don't really know how you can reasonably conclude that there is anything that is even close to bitcoin, and good luck to ethereum being able to transition into ethereum 2.0, because it seems that 1.0 is so goddamned broken that they need a 2.0, but it remains quite questionable if 2.0 is going to get off the ground, beyond just a bunch of continued baloney mumbo jumbo attempts to make it look like it is actually working, this time.

You keep saying this, but give no explanation on how is broken... So, JJG, educate us: how is Ethereum broken? What about it is not working?

But please...don't use the lame Bitcoin cult religious utterances of 'mumbo jumbo', 'phoney baloney', '14 year old snot nosed kids', or 'pie in the sky'. Give an actual explanation as to what is truly broken and makes Ethereum non-functioning.

From where I sit, Bitcoin grows in price and in liquidity (for now) while Ethereum grows in a more meaningful sense: more third party integration, more assets tokenized on the platform, and scheduled improvements. But I'll reiterate that the successful delivery/completion of Eth 2.0 and the transition from Eth 1.0 to 2.0 are both material risks.

But, on balance I prefer the risks of Ethereum compared to those of Bitcoins, especially in relation to the reward when the reward — that the ultimate value prop of blockchain is overall programmable digital scarcity and uniqueness and not just digital gold/currency.

JayJuanGee Wrote:Well, yeah, sometimes ethereum tries to act like it is different and other times it tries to act like it is the same, so who fucking knows.    We will see if there is much if any room left for it, especially as bitcoin will likely absorb some of ethereum's proposed use cases and also shitcoins like facebook coin will likely eat ethereum's lunch, if such facebook coin does actually issue, and also it does seem that ethereum has way more competitors than bitcoin, anyhow.. but yeah, we will see.  We will see.

Ethereum doesn't 'act' like anything... It's a permission-less, decentralized blockchain that can execute smart contracts with a native token and which other projects and other tokens can be built.

But I'm curious, what use cases will Bitcoin absorb from Ethereum in the near term or long term? What kind of projects can be built on bitcoin in a trust-less or trust-minimized manner?

And who do you see as Ethereum's closest competitors with a real shot in the smart contract space?

Seriously, I'd like to know.


JayJuanGee Wrote:Wishful thinking nonsensical talking point.  Bitcoin's energy consumption likely inspires attempts to look for cheap energy sources and more efficient use of various forms of energy.

Proof of work is the killer invention that bitcoin was able to put as a core element of its system, and the world has never seen such a magnanimous way to create incentives to mine and to keep dishonest folks in check.

Haha... wishful thinking from you, maybe.

Iran recently seized bitcoin miner hardware due to electricity consumption.

And China state planners have been threatening the same.

Proof of work as a consensus mechanism is ingenious, but its implementation at scale is a real risk and faces strong regulatory headwinds. Possibly not insurmountable, but hand waving this away as non existent is misleading and does you no favors.

JayJuanGee Wrote:Anyhow, yes, I look forward to actual use cases from the various shitcoins, and surely the ERC20 token phenomenon brought in some kinds of value into the space in terms of attracting a lot of investment and even innovative ways of investing and attracting value from what would have otherwise been considered unqualified investors to make a lot of money for projects very quickly and ERC20 fundamentals (as an investment vehicle or a quick way to build scams) largely has been standing up to cause the spurring of a lot of projects including scams that were able to be made and perhaps even a few legitimate projects (or parts of projects) that may later get absorbed into bitcoin. There is no lack of action in the scam space, even if I may be overgeneralizing a bit, just to emphasize my point, yet there still might be some people or projects that are not quite as scammy as others and may have also had good (non-scammy) intentions. Perhaps?

Overgeneralizing quite a bit: 90+ Ethereum Apps You Can Use Right Now

Complaining that there are shit projects on Ethereum is like complaining that there are shit projects on the internet. Both are permission-less platforms where scams and failed projects have been and will be common. Good thing it looks there are already some winners on Ethereum: https://defipulse.com/defi-list
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#73
(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Not arguing that Bitcoin hasn't had excellent price performance... For now, it's the crypto bellweather, annd I've made the case for why it may remain relevant.

Yes..... you are stubborn as fuck, and your "for now" suggests your ongoing denial of king daddy bitcoin.

The thing is that bitcoin has always been the leader, whether you call it a bellweather or try to diminish its importance.

In the totality of bitcoin's history, there has not been any crypto that has come even close to taking it over in terms of fundamentals.

Even if your stupid ass ethereum flippening would have occurred in 2017, that would NOT have caused any kind of material affect in terms of the supposed importance of ethereum, as compared with bitcoin. So, you continue to attempt to suggest that bitcoin has some kind of meaningful competitor or that it is deficient in some kind of way when it is not.

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: But I'm talking about which asset is the better bet to speculate on now and going forward.

Ok. that is a fair enough starting point. I think that any guy looking at his own financial situation has to consider his position from the now and going forward.. that's for sure. You are not going to get any argument from me regarding that perspective that guys need to attempt to continue to revisit for their own good psychologically and financially.... so if guys set up a solid plan and then they attempt to follow such plan and then they attempt to tweak such plan as they learn more about themselves and the assets in which they are investing.


(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: And for speculative purposes, I'd say the returns over 2017 are more relevant than price performance of today

Huh? You think that 2017 is going to repeat in some kind of way? Get the fuck real.

Of course, it is good to understand context, but jesus fuck, it is like you are planning on another stupid ass phase of dumb, which sure, such a pumpening and altseason might come again in a different way, but you gotta be careful to believe that 2017 is any kind of important model for what is going to happen in the future, especially if you are looking through the lenses of shitcoins.


(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: as that was a massive adoption cycle for crypto where all time highs in all crypto assets were reached. As of now Ether is further down from all time high while it has more developers, more enterprise, more impressive projects (notably in decentralized finance), more utility, planned protocol improvements, while still boasting significant adoption (though of course, not at Bitcoin's level).

Oh gawd... you are planning for another alt season, as if the dumbasses shitcoin pumpers are building up for another pumpening. Maybe I should start praying for you? rather than attempting to ridicule you for your level of seeming pie in the sky?

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: So yeah from a price perspective, I'm much more interested in what happens in the next major run-up based on what happened in the previous run-up and where we are relative to all time high. No denying, however, that Bitcoin's price resilience is a good sign and good for crypto, including Ethereum.


Reason the bitcoin's resilience is a good sign because any meaningful attempt to pumpening again is would be built upon a kind of hanging on the coattails of bitcoin attempt. Maybe it could be pulled off, but I am kind of thinking that there is a real desire to shake more weak hands and purge shitcoins some more, and ethereum seems to have a lot of room for purging.. So, in that regard, there has to be some kind of fundamentals in ethereum or in any other coin if they want to be able to pump. At least to get the pumpening started.


(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: You keep saying this, but give no explanation on how is broken... So, JJG, educate us: how is Ethereum broken? What about it is not working?

I am not into technical details, so I am not going to attempt to argue technical details. Furthermore, I believe that I already largely sufficiently stated various aspects of problems in Ethereum, and if you cannot see the various problem areas, I have no responsibility to attempt to persuade you.... Believe in your bullshit coin that has already conceded that it is being rebuilt from the ground up, and that is why ethereum 2.0 is being launched... should be pretty damned obvious that there are problems with ethereum 1.0 or whatever the fuck it is being called in its current iteration.


(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: But please...don't use the lame Bitcoin cult religious utterances of 'mumbo jumbo', 'phoney baloney', '14 year old snot nosed kids', or 'pie in the sky'. Give an actual explanation as to what is truly broken and makes Ethereum non-functioning.

I can use whatever expressions or words that I want, and if believe in your coin, then keep investing in it... do what you like.

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: From where I sit, Bitcoin grows in price and in liquidity (for now) while Ethereum grows in a more meaningful sense: more third party integration, more assets tokenized on the platform, and scheduled improvements. But I'll reiterate that the successful delivery/completion of Eth 2.0 and the transition from Eth 1.0 to 2.0 are both material risks.

I will believe the success of such transformation when I see it, and I believe such successful transformation is an important condition precedent for ethereum to have another pumpening. Either there needs to be actual success or an ability to make it look like there was actual success. My sense is that ethereum foundation or whatever pumpeners are going to have to rely on the creation of the impression of success rather than coming out with some kind of supposedly killer product.

We will see. We will see. The burden seems to be on ethereum to deliver and that seems to be part of the reason why its price is continuing to suffer, and that community of developers (and marketers) is under a decent amount of pressure to deliver some kind of working actual product (or some kind of believable marketing campaign angle).


(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: But, on balance I prefer the risks of Ethereum compared to those of Bitcoins,

Yes. Apparently you do, especially if you are attempting to tailor your investment to your beliefs. So, yeah, good job there.

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: especially in relation to the reward when the reward — that the ultimate value prop of blockchain is overall programmable digital scarcity and uniqueness and not just digital gold/currency.

Bitcoin is not a "not just" asset, so you can characterize bitcoin as "just x" but it is not. Sound money is a really powerful concept and it is at the base level, including the security that accompanies those simple foundations. Furthermore, the strong underpinnings of bitcoin's design can support more complex matters at higher levels. In other words, it is probably much better to build flexibility on top of security rather than to attempt to build security on top of complexity.... .. but yeah, let's see if ethereum can accomplish their release of a product that is NOT as broken as their current one.


(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Ethereum doesn't 'act' like anything... It's a permission-less, decentralized blockchain that can execute smart contracts with a native token and which other projects and other tokens can be built.


Yes. The permission-less and decentralized is language taken from what bitcoin actually is, but ethereum aspires to be (supposedly), and we will see if ethereum can come even close to bitcoin in those regards. Regarding smart contract... it seems that is being developed on bitcoin at higher levels or maybe bitcoin could just absorb those aspects of ethereum to the extent that there might be some future use case(s).

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: But I'm curious, what use cases will Bitcoin absorb from Ethereum in the near term or long term? What kind of projects can be built on bitcoin in a trust-less or trust-minimized manner?

I guess we will see. Seems like there is already a lot of power with merely being able to move value around without asking anyone. Surely, there is development going on on an ongoing basis, and if sound money is present with bitcoin, then I don't know if there is any need for any other feature beyond mere organic adoption and a variety of continued growth... it can already be transferred, so there are likely going to be future additional ways to transfer value and to hold coins and to interface. I am not worried, and feel no need to attempt to list use cases or even to figure out what people might do while they are gravitating into bitcoin.

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: And who do you see as Ethereum's closest competitors with a real shot in the smart contract space? Seriously, I'd like to know.

I don't care.. it's your damned investment. There are thousands of coins and none of them are close to bitcoin, so likely many of them are closer to ethereum. I don't feel any need to study a bunch of shit coins and give you pros and cons about how closely related they are to ethereum. You got yourself ethereum so be happy with it and invest away.

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Haha... wishful thinking from you, maybe.

Well, yeah we were referring to electrical consumption. Who cares? Miners can chose to mine bitcoin or not, and it seems that the hashpower of bitcoin continues to go up, so someone must be mining bitcoin.

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Iran recently seized bitcoin miner hardware due to electricity consumption.

And China state planners have been threatening the same.

Who cares? Let them shut down various aspects of bitcoin mining in their country, and then what is going to happen? The mining will go somewhere else. Is that a loss to bitcoin or to their country? It's a free market, so we will see if hash power goes down or difficulty adjusts. You know that bitcoin's difficulty adjusts every two weeks, too, right? Therefore, if hashpower goes down then difficulty goes down too... so I don't see what is the supposed problem, yet? Individual miners can choose to mine or to not mine based on whether they believe it is in their interest to mine. So far, they are choosing to mine bitcoin, so it seems, and that is part of the explanation why bitcoin mining hashpower continues to go up exorbitantly.

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Proof of work as a consensus mechanism is ingenious,

Of course, it is ingenious, and it is the first of its kind, in which the Byzantine general's problem was solved. Bitcoin is a magnanimous innovation that the world has never before seen. That is also referred to as a paradigm shifting invention.

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: but its implementation at scale is a real risk and faces strong regulatory headwinds. Possibly not insurmountable, but hand waving this away as non existent is misleading and does you no favors.

Well, you are assuming a lot. Of course, bitcoin is an experiment to see how it plays out, and over 10 years, bitcoin has grown and grown and grown.. fuck, it was the most powerful of computers just a few years into its existence, and look at the hash power, now, it is 1,000s of times greater than it was 5 years ago.. The hashpower continues to grow in bitcoin and continues to be distributed all around the world.

Of course, there could be some additional tests of bitcoin, but until then, bitcoin is the only crypto currency that is actually inventing something and then building on the foundational invention while spurring the attempted copy cats of thousands of shit coin imitators who are trying to suggest that they are improving on bitcoin's foundation, including but not limited to ethereum.

Bitcoin's foundation remains strong and unwavering and has proven itself several times including a multitude of attacks that were simultaneously attempted in 2017. Anyhow "if you don't understand bitcoin then I don't have time to explain it to you" (that is a quote taken from satoshi.. hahahahaha).

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Overgeneralizing quite a bit:  90+ Ethereum Apps You Can Use Right Now

That's fine. There are use cases for ethereum.. great. You need a list, definitely.

(08-23-2019, 08:19 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Complaining that there are shit projects on Ethereum is like complaining that there are shit projects on the internet. Both are permission-less platforms where scams and failed projects have been and will be common. Good thing it looks there are already some winners on Ethereum: https://defipulse.com/defi-list

Sure, with so much damned money in such ethereum project and development and projects and developments related to ethereum, you would think that there better be some innovations that come out of the whole space, even if some of those innovations might be to learn what not to do
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#74
Nerds.
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#75
(08-24-2019, 02:39 AM)SpecialEd Wrote: Nerds.

You have something more substantial to discuss?  I recall a while back you were presenting a decent amount of conclusory vagueness regarding your own strategy(ies) in regard to bitcoin.. wanting to make some price calls rather than talking the realities of the UPs and Downs of these kinds of matters, including sometimes the difficulties to measure profitability in the short term, unless maybe some guys are taking profits in dollars along the way.

Admittedly, I am feeling a bit repetitive with aspects of my ongoing discussion with billydingdong, so I would welcome some discussion of more investment basics, and even crypto basics, and surely I am more interested in bitcoin than making some discussions of various cryptos, which is the overall topic of this thread.

There might be some glamour cryptos out there, but a lot of them are taking a pretty decently-sized beatings relative to bitcoin in the past few months, and maybe even some of the beatings could be sourced back to early 2018, so more than 18 months of beatings, no?

Seems to me that there are decent chances such beatings, especially continuing to disproportionately be aimed at purging excessive value out various shitcoins is going to continue until a decently amount more of the value is purged from several of the altcoins (aka shitcoins).

Do you have a current strategy(ies) in regards to bitcoin or crypto, currently special ed?  hopefully without too much vague and conclusory braggings.. which had seemed to be your previous tendencies...  hahahahahaha and yeah, suggesting that billydingdong and I are nerds might be suggesting that you might not know too much beyond superficialities... but even that could be helpful to provide some basic talking points that might not be so heavily into the more specialized study areas that billydingdong and I had been devolving into.
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#76
Nah I dont have any current strategies curently lol.

When I have something substantial to say, I'll say it. Pointing out how silly you guys sound seemed pretty important at the time though.
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#77
(08-24-2019, 03:17 AM)SpecialEd Wrote: Nerds.

Don't leave we're about to start talking about Dungeons + Dragons Coin
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#78
Hedera Hashgraph (coin is HBAR) launched its mainnet yesterday. The project is basically looking to become the industry standard enterprise blockchain.

Some notes about the project:
  • In 2018, it had a gigantic token sale of $124 million USD.

  • The project is a distributed ledger technology that uses a hashgraph as a consensus mechanism rather than a blockchain to supposedly achieve 10,000 transactions/second (current public blockchains achieve btw 2 - 10 tx/s).
     
  • It will have its own coin (HBAR), smart contract platform, and file storage service. Transaction fees will be determined by processing and storage required. There will be 50 billion coins minted.

  • It will be governed by a council of 39 global blue-chip companies from various countries across various sectors. Governing members are responsible for regulating the network and modifying the protocol. Some huge companies have joined its governing council: Boeing, IBM, and Tata Communications.

  • The hashgraph technology is patented and not open-source but Swirlds (patent holder + creator of the platform) claims it is 'open-review' which means that while everyone will be able see the source code, it will be illegal to copy and fork the state of the network and create a competing network with the same tech. It is also 'open access' meaning anyone can deploy to the network.

  • The project is starting off as a permissioned blockchain, meaning only assigned and trusted nodes can verify transactions. It intends to move to a permissionless blockchain (where anonymous nodes verify transactions like in Bitcoin, Ethereum, and most cryptos) once the project becomes stable, established, and its coins become widely distributed.

  • Project went live yesterday with 26 dApps (decentralized applications)

Interesting project and I'm still deciding whether to invest in it... Price is currently 10 cents a coin.

The project is not  Bitcoin (decentralized, highly censorship-resistant money with hard cap) nor Ethereum (decentralized programmable money with more flexible and proactive governance).

Nonetheless, it's entirely possible that there may be value in a 'corporate' coin with:

- High transaction throughput while also achieving distributed consensus
- Pro regulatory compliant
- Somewhat decentralized governance among a disparate group of major companies
- Initially permissioned with roadmap to becoming permissionless
- Propietary technology that protects the value of the network while still giving open access



Other sources:

Hedera Hashgraph profile
https://messari.io/asset/hedera-hashgraph#profile

Overview of the Project
https://www.hedera.com/how-it-works

Bloomberg Interview explaining project
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/audio/201...lems-radio
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#79
Interesting project for sure. I actually found out about it through my exchange, which is Liquid.com

They posted something about Hedera on the main page and I ended up reading the whitepaper. 

Basically for all the non-nerds, this is a great summary: "hashgraph consensus, a faster, more secure alternative to blockchain consensus mechanisms."

As for any investment situation I am only in BTC and XMR. Mainly just use XMR to obscure my Bitcoin payments. Works well IMO
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#80
Ethereum now the number one chain in transaction fees. 

[Image: EEwdR4uUwAA1Ycy?format=png&name=900x900]
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