How important is income really?
#41
To be fair that is the only real route to a surplus of cash, unless you're born into wealth.
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#42
(08-13-2020, 07:24 PM)Shimmy Wrote:
(08-13-2020, 06:30 PM)SpursFan741 Wrote: Depends on location. In Western Europe, everyone has some money, so in general this is the location where money matters the less. (Because of unemployment benefits, social security, minimum wages, everyone has 20 holidays at least a year etc., good protection for employees, free education etc.)

I found American and Russian girls care a lot more for money in general and ambition into men . Asian girls really don't care that much about income either, just because they are not smart enough, you can tell them anything and they believe it. If you're white and decent looking and have an okay job, it's all good.

That's because you don't need the money status boost.  You already have it because being white is a huge status boost in those places.  A better comparison would be to compare some broke local person to a rich local.  I guarantee the rich local is slaying 1000x more pussy than a broke local, and probably more than many white guys there.

Wealthy Asian guys (in Asia) undoubtedly slay tons of high-quality pussy. But they invariably run extreme simp game and, most often, sponsorship game. That's stuff that a lot of us find distasteful, but that's just the way it is. They're also usually married, so it's also mistress game. And in most cases, a bit of P4P game for added variety.

(08-13-2020, 06:19 AM)Dash Wrote: OP,

You question is ENTIRELY subjective.

How important money and career is to someone depends squarely on how much they need or value those things.

Some dudes are perfectly content living a frugal minimalistic lifestyle and want to focus their energy on other things besides work/career.

Some dudes are unhappy with a frugal minimalistic lifestyle and want focus their time and get personal validation / fulfillment on career and building bankrolls.

This is really all there is to it. Work your own plan and fit the women in around it. There are Miami women who love ballers. There are women of modest origins all throughout the world who will think your $1,000/month budget is awesome. And everything in between -- hippie chicks, etc.

The one point I'd make is that income is a very limited way of looking at this. It makes sense for the very young. But eventually you need to think more about net worth. Avoid debt, live within your means, invest ... and eventually your income becomes a less important part of the picture compared to investment gains or losses.

If you're 50 and living in Peru on $1,000 a month, then that's going to feel one way if you have net worth of $0. And it's going to feel entirely different if you have net worth of $500,000, or $1 million, or $2 million.
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#43
I really don't believe in this bullshit that after 80K or whatever low number that is you approach the law of diminishing returns.... Especially in Western Europe or NYC.

Shit is EXPENSIVE here. Just an extremely basic breakdown

Between a Car, Garage, Rent and some Bills im already at around 2K a month in expenses and its probably more than that. I mean I combined work/home into one apartment but STILL.

Def would like to be at the point where I don't worry about money too much and that I think that feeling will START at about 7K after taxes a month.
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#44
Mister kir diesal, there has been a few studies on this.

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-...s-wiz-serp

I'm sure it's going by averages. This wouldn't apply to NYC or SF. It's more the average cost of living spot. You can probably take the average cost of living, take 75k and scale it up with cost of living in preferred area and it will ring a little more true
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#45
(08-14-2020, 08:43 AM)Kir Diesel Wrote: I really don't believe in this bullshit that after 80K or whatever low number that is you approach the law of diminishing returns.... Especially in Western Europe or NYC.

Shit is EXPENSIVE here. Just an extremely basic breakdown

Between a Car, Garage, Rent and some Bills im already at around 2K a month in expenses and its probably more than that. I mean I combined work/home into one apartment but STILL.

Def would like to be at the point where I don't worry about money too much and that I think that feeling will START at about 7K after taxes a month.

I'm pretty sure you can get an apartment and small car outside the city central, or apartment with no car in the city central, for 80k a year? Go look on expatistan, you can look at and compare average costs in individual cities.

If you had a trust fund that gave you 7k a month, minus any income from working, in other words you'd be working for free until you made over 7000 a month, you would be insane to get a job.

You could hang out in the city central doing day game all day. You wouldn't need to spend 9-5 every day in an office. As someone in a situation like this, where I can work 1 day a week to cover expenses, and I choose the day, and spend all day the rest of the week doing whatever I like, I can tell you the huge benefits.

It's hard to be alpha dog when you rely so heavily on others, and spend every day under the thumb of your boss or your customer etc. It has a mental effect on you, when you must ask permission to take an extra hour for lunch, or have to get up early to rush to the office every day, not only do you loose that time, and have the direct stress, it has a subtle effect on where your body and mind place you in the hierarchical totem pole.

Salaries are also not always a true indicator of status. I mean you probably think that a suit makes a guy look cool. But lets be serious, if you go in the boardroom and one guy is in t-shirt and jeans and everyone else is in a suit, who is dominant? If you're in the military and go in a room and 9 guys are in camouflage and one guy is in jeans with a beard, who is the commando? I mean a tie is a phallic symbol at the end of the day. Who is the alpha they guy with the penis on his neck or the other guy? Lol. Naturally a janitor in a dirty t-shirt is a different story. But you know what I mean. A suit indicates a beta with a high income.

If you're top dog your body scales up testosterone for example. You need it to fight and to fuck. If you're bottom dog, your body scales back, you don't want to send those signals and get beat up by the alpha. In many ways, it's the alpha position or the beta position, and not your innate chemistry, which decide status. Not being in a hierarchy at least means your body is not suppressing your testosterone in order to avoid being beat up by the alpha. The way modern society works, being in any organization, even if you're in a supervisory position, you also have someone above you, and the organization itself oppresses you.

On the other hand I'm always the alpha in familial organizations with latinas due to relative income and also the pigmentocracy.

It's quite easy to be an alpha of in a family, but you're likely to be a beta of some type within any complex organizations.
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#46
I have absolutely no idea what I just read
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#47
(08-13-2020, 04:29 PM)Kir Diesel Wrote: Ive found that again looks, game and social status come first and that your financial situation or ambition isn't an "attraction switch" as a part of their initial attraction. It just feels like the barrier is low... You earn 30K to 40K euro working for Hans Dieters Bullshit Shop, have some freetime and you can afford to go on vacation to their typical trendy locations and BAM the financial checklist is fine. 

When you are dating 30 to 35 year old chicks who are thinking about marriage maybe its another story but from my experience they do care.. but the barrier is low there financially too.

This is just in stark contrast to dating NYC girls.. not to say that its better... but ambition felt more respected no matter the age. However, it is what it is and its the game we gotta play.

Again it depends on if you're talking about dating or one night stands, though. Most European girls absolutely won't give a shit what you do when chatting them up in a nightclub for a potential one night stand, or if you're on a tinder first date where its only really aiming for a fling - then its all about instant attraction switches like looks/game. But with more serious dating almost all middle class girls will be screening for intellect/drive/finances/social status pretty heavily, trying to assess for long term suitability. My target market is middle class girls aged about 24-28 and literally every one quizzes me on my job in-depthly by the 2nd or 3rd date.

All the studies don't really lie too - the vast vast majority of professional women just refuse to marry down social status-wise.

Though it is also influenced by your target market I'd say. If you're going for more alternative/hipster girls they're obviously going to care a lot less about their boyfriend having a respectable/lucrative job. And the same for girls under 23 of all types, who aren't really thinking long term yet at all.
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#48
(08-14-2020, 11:19 AM)zatara Wrote:
(08-13-2020, 04:29 PM)Kir Diesel Wrote: ...You earn 30K to 40K euro working for Hans Dieters Bullshit Shop, have some freetime and you can afford to go on vacation to their typical trendy locations and BAM the financial checklist is fine...

...My target market is middle class girls aged about 24-28 and literally every one quizzes me on my job in-depthly by the 2nd or 3rd date.

All the studies don't really lie too - the vast vast majority of professional women just refuse to marry down social status-wise...

I think KD is correct in that a moderate income is sufficient.

In your case it seems to be less a matter of your actual job than it is a matter of providing the right answers during the quiz, i.e. perhaps be more excited about your career and be more philosophical and have a well polished career game plan to show your drive and ambition etc.

Perhaps you are working in the Hans Dieters Bullshit Shop as an employee to learn the ropes because you intend to buy a franchise etc.

Unless she goes to the office with you, she would never know your real situation, so the sky is the limit to your ambitions.
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#49
Money gives you more options in life but at the same point there is no more valuable commodity than time. Its important to find the right balance. Its definitely an individual thing, some guys chase money more than others and make it their number 1 goal above everything else to be making x amount. Some are more happy just to be able to support themselves and have the money to do the things they want eg travel.

in regards to women in my personal experience as a 20s guy in Europe I rarely met any that gave a shit about how much i earn or my job. Most of the time I was casually dating but I had a few girls that were close and 1 ltr.
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#50
(08-14-2020, 11:32 AM)Mister Happy Wrote: I think KD is correct in that a moderate income is sufficient.

In your case it seems to be less a matter of your actual job than it is a matter of providing the right answers during the quiz, i.e. perhaps be more excited about your career and be more philosophical and have a well polished career game plan to show your drive and ambition etc.

Perhaps you are working in the Hans Dieters Bullshit Shop as an employee to learn the ropes because you intend to buy a franchise etc.

Unless she goes to the office with you, she would never know your real situation, so the sky is the limit to your ambitions.

Lying about your job is only going to get you so far. Its obviously fine/useful for in a club or on a first date. But within a few months (or less) of dating you're going to find yourself in a social situation with her family or friends where someone works in your industry and starts asking you technical questions, and you're going to be found out very quickly. That and/or your lifestyle isn't going to be congruent at all with what you're claiming. Its not a medium/long term solution at all.
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#51
(08-14-2020, 02:16 AM)WombRaider Wrote: If you're 50 and living in Peru on $1,000 a month, then that's going to feel one way if you have net worth of $0. And it's going to feel entirely different if you have net worth of $500,000, or $1 million, or $2 million.

Someone's been cribbing my demo.  Just kidding.  Maybe. 

Based on the numbers I've looked at and have experience with in Latin America (outside of some cities) there aren't a ton of upscale options where you might have to drop $500USD on a dinner/night out so $4-5K/month budget pulled from your investments isn't too bad for a decent lifestyle.  Bottle service in Medellín is maybe $150 or so.

(08-14-2020, 12:34 PM)zatara Wrote:
(08-14-2020, 11:32 AM)Mister Happy Wrote: I think KD is correct in that a moderate income is sufficient.

In your case it seems to be less a matter of your actual job than it is a matter of providing the right answers during the quiz, i.e. perhaps be more excited about your career and be more philosophical and have a well polished career game plan to show your drive and ambition etc.

Perhaps you are working in the Hans Dieters Bullshit Shop as an employee to learn the ropes because you intend to buy a franchise etc.

Unless she goes to the office with you, she would never know your real situation, so the sky is the limit to your ambitions.

Lying about your job is only going to get you so far. Its obviously fine/useful for in a club or on a first date. But within a few months (or less) of dating you're going to find yourself in a social situation with her family or friends where someone works in your industry and starts asking you technical questions, and you're going to be found out very quickly. That and/or your lifestyle isn't going to be congruent at all with what you're claiming. Its not a medium/long term solution at all.

Do you feel that you would be looked upon negatively by women/family if you were able to retire early (in your 30s, Mr Money Moustache style) and be able to coast on investments and doing odd jobs whenever you felt like it?  

Having said that, I can see where some men would have to play the game and make impressions on others.  Curiously, whenever those types of situations come up now and someone is digging hard (as in they won't back the fuck off when I adequately responded to their probing bullshit), I pretty much eject because experience tells me that we are headed to the No Fun Zone and that's a place I don't want to be.
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#52
@ zatara: I don't think "lying" is the right word here. More like putting your best foot forward. More a matter of placing more focus on your potential and your goals than a current situation, if you feel your current situation is not that great. When the chick comes back to your place she will get an idea. However in the pre-bang interview phase, it really is about telling a fun story sometimes, and not the factual details. If thi leaves an overly optimistic impression, and she winds up making a poor decision, well, you have to break some eggs to get an omelet. it's all about the bang baby. Once you get the bang just supply orgasms on a regular basis and she will forget about your poor work prospects. If your situation really is that terrible then you have to choose between inceldom and breaking hearts.

@OviOs: I think $1000/month in Peru and coast on investments and odd jobs is a great idea. I can do that (minus the investments lol). It's impressive to latinas down here to be a man of leisure.
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#53
Money doesn't matter at all

All you need is sick game

Therefore, send me all your money
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#54
(08-14-2020, 05:07 PM)whiteknightrises Wrote: Money doesn't matter at all

All you need is sick game

Therefore, send me all your money

 correct also here's my cashapp $xxxx
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#55
(08-14-2020, 03:17 PM)Mister Happy Wrote: @ zatara: I don't think "lying" is the right word here. More like putting your best foot forward. More a matter of placing more focus on your potential and your goals than a current situation, if you feel your current situation is not that great. When the chick comes back to your place she will get an idea. However in the pre-bang interview phase, it really is about telling a fun story sometimes, and not the factual details. If thi leaves an overly optimistic impression, and she winds up making a poor decision, well, you have to break some eggs to get an omelet. it's all about the bang baby. Once you get the bang just supply orgasms on a regular basis and she will forget about your poor work prospects. If your situation really is that terrible then you have to choose between inceldom and breaking hearts.

@OviOs: I think $1000/month in Peru and coast on investments and odd jobs is a great idea. I can do that (minus the investments lol). It's impressive to latinas down here to be a man of leisure.

Other than the provider-hunting single mommies that I have to filter online, yeah, I see that presenting yourself as above the working class and thus "able to do as you please whenever you please" is not a bad MO.

If I still had to work and wanted to do so remotely, remote IT support is the way I'd do it.  You should be able to find something north of $1K/month if you were so inclined.  

I have to ask though: Isn't $1K/mo limiting to some degree?  Yeah, airfare is relatively cheap to fly around Latin America but you can't buy a decent new phone or laptop without smashing the budget for a couple of months.
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#56
$1000 budget in most Latin American cities is doable but it's not like you will be a baller. If you can keep all your expenses at $500 or less and then have $500 just for going out it wouldn't be too bad.

With $2000 USD a month in most LA cities you can live good.
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#57
(08-15-2020, 04:19 AM)OviOs Wrote:
(08-14-2020, 03:17 PM)Mister Happy Wrote: @ zatara: I don't think "lying" is the right word here. More like putting your best foot forward. More a matter of placing more focus on your potential and your goals than a current situation, if you feel your current situation is not that great. When the chick comes back to your place she will get an idea. However in the pre-bang interview phase, it really is about telling a fun story sometimes, and not the factual details. If thi leaves an overly optimistic impression, and she winds up making a poor decision, well, you have to break some eggs to get an omelet. it's all about the bang baby. Once you get the bang just supply orgasms on a regular basis and she will forget about your poor work prospects. If your situation really is that terrible then you have to choose between inceldom and breaking hearts.

@OviOs: I think $1000/month in Peru and coast on investments and odd jobs is a great idea. I can do that (minus the investments lol). It's impressive to latinas down here to be a man of leisure.

Other than the provider-hunting single mommies that I have to filter online, yeah, I see that presenting yourself as above the working class and thus "able to do as you please whenever you please" is not a bad MO.

If I still had to work and wanted to do so remotely, remote IT support is the way I'd do it.  You should be able to find something north of $1K/month if you were so inclined.  

I have to ask though: Isn't $1K/mo limiting to some degree?  Yeah, airfare is relatively cheap to fly around Latin America but you can't buy a decent new phone or laptop without smashing the budget for a couple of months.

I believe that $1000 a month would really allow you to stand out in comparison with many locals and enjoy a life of leisure. You can get by on $500 a month, so you would be able to save $500 a month.
Certainly $1000 could get a decent phone. You could fly to many vacation spots in the world, stay in hotels for a month for what $2-3000? I recommend spend January outside of Buenos Aires, it is as hot as balls.

Travel within SA is indeed cheap. Bus is an option if you don't like airfare prices. I've taken overnight buses to Santiago Chile and Montevideo Uruguay, maybe it was $100 at most.

ps - after writing this I see SC87 wrote about same thing. I think it would be hard to burn $500 a month going out unless you have a really insane lifestyle. Bottle of wine here is $1. beer of course less. Steak and fries dinner (easily divided in two to eat a whole day if you have a mind to) available for $3. I simply can't eat and drink enough to burn $500 lol.
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#58
(08-13-2020, 11:18 PM)Wintermute Wrote: From my own experience I would say the diminishing returns set in at 70K. At that point more money wasn't good in and of itself, there was always a trade off against higher stress and more time in the office.

It's made zero difference to the women in my life. For the most part they've been content knowing I'm working towards something.

I worked for a bloke who was pulling in about 170K all told, but he was carrying balances on a few credit cards and hit the bank up for the highest possible mortgage. With zero consumer debt and a small mortgage, you can thrive on much less.

Thing is, 170 and 70k aren't all that different in reality.

You might have a slightly nicer pad, slightly nicer mid level Mercedes, slightly more expensive watch and go on 5* holidays not 4.

They're just irrelevant jumps on a macro level.


To have the penthouse, the Ferrari, the gold timepiece and post instagram videos in the shower on an Emirates First flight usually requires way, way more income than 170k (of I presume dollars). Those are the status symbols that start to have women overlooking just about every flaw you may have. 

And this level is still pretty small beer compared to the Bugatti and Private Jet crew.


It's like wondering why you aren't getting more pussy at 5'9 than the 5'8.5 guy you know...cause women prefer taller men, right?
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#59
(08-14-2020, 01:12 PM)OviOs Wrote: Do you feel that you would be looked upon negatively by women/family if you were able to retire early (in your 30s, Mr Money Moustache style) and be able to coast on investments and doing odd jobs whenever you felt like it?  

Having said that, I can see where some men would have to play the game and make impressions on others.  Curiously, whenever those types of situations come up now and someone is digging hard (as in they won't back the fuck off when I adequately responded to their probing bullshit), I pretty much eject because experience tells me that we are headed to the No Fun Zone and that's a place I don't want to be.

Again obviously it wouldn't matter for a one night stand, or a short term thing, or if the girl is college aged. But for a long term relationship with a girl from any decent background in my experience it'd depend on two things:

1) Your level of retirement income. If you're "retired" in your 30s and only earning $20k a year thats not going to cut in a first world city for any sort of lifestyle (for a family or even just for a man by himself to be fair). You're going to need a comparable level of income to an OK white collar job to justify retiring - that'll vary hugely by location, but very roughly say €50k+ a year in Western Europe, $80k+ in the US.

2) What do you do with your retirement time? If you're sitting at home playing video games all day thats not going to be attractive/respectable to anyone - male or female. If you're using your time to get involved in charities, to go back to college to do a PhD, or something similar its entirely different. That shows work effort and ambition independent of employment.

Basically it all comes down to if you're going to be comparable to their father for most of these girls in my experience. If their father is a doctor/lawyer/business owner etc they're going to want to bring someone home to their family thats going to be professionally respected, and who'll fit in socially/intellectually at family events. An unemployed bum/retail worker/barman etc will be neither. For a one night stand/a fling, or a relationship if they're 21, that obviously doesn't really matter. But once they start hitting 25+ and are thinking about settling down it sure does.
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#60
Is anyone here aiming for early retirement/financial independence?
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