Indigenous experiences and the lessons they carry (Shamanism, herbal medicine, ...)
#1
I thought I'd make a post about experiences people have had with indigenous communities as well as with certain elements of their lifestyle such as shamanism, natural cures and their basic life philosophies.

Recently I've had the luck to have 3 encounters with indigenous people here in Ecuador and in Colombia. Let me elaborate on them:

-In Colombia, I was traveling around with a local girl and she told me her father was diagnosed with Leukemia or blood cancer several years ago. He was put on chemotherapy, but it wasn't helping him and he was told he had 2 months to live. He got news of a local shaman in the mountains who had a gift and cured with natural plants. He went to see him and a little over a month the man was fully healed. I spoke to him personally and see no reason to not believe him. Also, the shaman didn't charge him anything. Doctors told him he got lucky or didn't believe him.

So, interested in this peculiar story, I decided to go visit the shaman myself. He lives in a small house on the flank of a mountain in rural South Colombia. You bring a sample of urine and he will tell you what you have ('he has a gift'). Then he recommends what plants to take which you buy there if you like at a reasonable cost.

I went there and there were lots of people waiting outside, mostly very poor people from the region. The shaman was happy to see me. He said foreigners don't visit often. He explained to me the history of how he came to be the person he was and that he can cure nearly everything, except for very advanced cancers at times and HIV (although he will make life quality with HIV a lot better).

He looked at my urine for a while and then pretty much summed up things that I knew. Problems I have had for a long time with my stomach and for which I spoke to several doctors, who give them meaningless names like intolerable bowel syndrome and so on. He also told me about specific indicators like triglycerides, blood sugar, cholesterol, etc. All that from looking at my urine for 5 min and most pretty much spot on. One strange thing was that he told me I had a problem with acid reflux. I told him I didn't, I very rarely have that. He said ok. The next day I woke up with acid reflux.

I bought some of the plants he recommended (they do make some money on those I imagine) and they have improved my health overall. I have no doubt plant medicine has amazing potential, but it's hard to know the right combinations/dosages/interactions etc.

-Second experience. I went to visit the Tsachilas Indians in Ecuador for an ayahuasca ceremony (will make an ayahuasca thread soon). Besides the intense experience of the drug I also had time to talk to the Shaman apprentice for a while. He told me that the Tsachilas don't know cancer. None of them has it or has ever had it. People might get sick at times, but they always have a cure. No one dies of illness he said, only from old age or accidents. He says they avoid general society for its dangers and toxic influences (both mentally and physically). People in their community are known for their longevity of life and general well-being. He also said they sleep very little. Afterward, we went for a walk to the jungle and we passed by several plants and threes, where he would stop and say 'this is a cure for the stomach', 'this is a sedative', 'this helps against ...'. Basically the jungle was their medicine lab. They also truly believe in earth's energy and how energy circulates between people, the earth, animals, the dead, etc.

-Third experience. I went for a few days into the amazon to live with an indigenous community known as the 'Quechuas'. My guide was a 51-year-old guy who looked 35. Once again very similar experience. He stated that in his community not only do they not have cancer, he also stated they have cures for everything. In a discussion I had with him and some others, they went over how sometimes foreigners come to their villages very ill. They generally cure them within a month or max two. He went over many plants and threes and their effects. He showed me which ones prevent cancers, stomach problems and so forth. Another person told the story of a prostitute who was found nearly dead on the street of a big city. A member of the community brought her in and they gave her a plant, which they say is like ayahuasca but many times stronger. This is their last hope they say. When all other plants don't work, they will go to this one. It will bring you into a state of trance for 3-5 days in which you will be completely out of this world, near death as it seems. According to him, when you wake up, you will be cured even of HIV, which they say is the hardest thing to cure.

These things were discussed among them as common knowledge. They were not only talking about things they heard. Fi my guide healed his fractured arm by several sessions of ayahuasca, combined with plants and snake poison. They weren't trying to sell anything. I asked and then said they can show me where to find these things in the jungle, nothing more. In addition, they don't use money, within their community they just do favors for eachother. People also reach very high age there, people in the 90's are not uncommon. They said the death causes are snake bites and old age, not much more.

Now, I'm a rational being. I have had lots of university education and off course some of these things make me very sceptical. But on the other hand I realize the filth of the medical industry and its patented medicine, the general issues with the way modern science is developed (clinical settings, difficulty proving complex relations etc.). I also know these indigenous people have nothing to gain and everything to lose by sharing info like this. Another shaman from another tribe told me he fears western people realizing the strength of the jungle. He sees big industry coming over and ruining what they have held sacred for all their lives, just as the oil industry is already doing in some of their territories. They hardly ever write things down as many indigenous are illiterate, which makes it more difficult to spread knowledge.

For me all of this is pretty fascinating. If I ever get a very bad disease, I will definitely consider revisiting these people, hearing what they propose, while not neglecting traditional medicine either. People like the indigenous that live healthy lives in balance with nature, who don't use money and who generally live in harmony with their tribe and others. I think they can teach us from modern society many lessons that have been neglected or forgotten. 

When I asked them if sometimes doctors or researchers come visit them for info, they said 'no, almost never', I asked 'why not', they replied ' we wonder about that as well sometimes'.

Anyone else had some time with indigenous communities and interesting experiences to share? Or some insights on plant medicine? Or thought on their general philosophy? I know that in places like India, Africa or Papua New Guinea the traditional medicine is also still much more valued than in the west. 
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#2
The power of suggestion and hypnosis is very real... placebos would fall into that same category. That doesn't negate the plant medicine effects, but intensifies them!

Just look at coffee, a well known stimulant that requires something to focus on to make full use of it's effects... The "western" system has hijacked this plant medicine, glorified it and given employees ample work to focus on. Is it bullshit? Of course not. It works!

Psychadelics are obvious for stripping away mental blocks...

How about Korean Ginseng?

Religion (including "shamanism") falls into the suggestion and hypnosis side of things through the use of prayer, or whatever system/tool is used to do it.

Great thread!
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#3
Good post, I don’t doubt that they can heal certain things but it seems like a stretch to me that they can heal a broken bone.
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#4
Doctors don't actually heal broken bones and most other illnesses. Your own body does the healing. You can actually watch the healing in progress if you cut yourself. First a scab forms, then a week later the skin is back to normal. With respect to broken bones and other trauma, doctors just clean the mess up, put the pieces more or less back where they belong, then your own body does the actual healing.

There are also a limited number of poisons that doctors use to combat foreign pathogens (bacteria, parasites, etc). These poisons work on the principle that they are more damaging to the pathogen than your own body. Many of these poisons are plant-based. Perhaps these shamans have a few such poisons at their disposal that western doctors lack. But pathogens are not that common. Most modern illnesses are systemic (heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, cancer, Alzheimer's, etc) and western doctors can do very little to prevent or cure systemic illnesses. Your own body needs to do the healing.

Thus the most important thing you can do to get healthy and stay healthy is to maximize your own body's healing potential. And the most important way to do that is get rid is stress. Basically, the body has two modes, stressed and non-stressed, roughly corresponding to sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. Stress mode is for away running from lions and whatnot: shut down digestion and immune system, release all resources for use by muscles so you can run and fight better, unable to sleep, brain focuses on short-term thinking. Non-stressed mode is the opposite: most resources go to digestion and immune system, feeling of laziness on muscles, easy to sleep, brain able to think long term. Modern society tends to keep people in the stressed state far more than is healthy. Manospshere especially encourages the stress state: work hard, play hard, take extra testosterone, slam weights around, etc.

I suspect a lot of the "miracles" of these shamans are a result of putting a person who has been highly stresed for a very long time into the non-stress mode, so that the patient's own body can finally start healing itself. If healing has been delayed for a long time, the sudden release of this backlogged healing power could easily produce very rapid results.
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#5
Good post and I do think indeed that what the indigenous do should be seen as a total packet. First of all, as Shemp mentioned a stressfree and natural environment. This includes good air quality, probably water from a natural source and food that is locally grown and free of pesticides and other manipulations (unprocessed). Then, they add natural cures which have proven utility over time and are generally quite basic in the form of herbal tea. Often, you do more exercise in those environment, but generally light exercise as in walking around. You are likely to also sleep better, with no alarms in a quiet natural environment.

This all constitutes an interesting mix of positive elements for your body to indeed heal itself:
1. Reduced Stress
2. Clean air
3. Clean water
4. Unprocessed food, often higher in nutrients
5. Herbal medicine for general health
6. Better sleep
7. More exercise

I think this is the main method of action.

Nevertheless, some of their medicine does have the potential to have a direct impact. Think Ayahuasca for mental health (and also deworming) for instance. It would be logical that other things they use might also have a direct beneficial effect on specific illnesses and some of those might not at all be mainstream.

One other element I'd like to mention is that they often have a form of natural probiotics. For instance, they share a drink called chicha, which is a fermented drink which the mothers preparing it, take into their mouth and spit back out (for later consumption). This might seem disgusting, but if you really think about it, it makes sense that it is healthy. If you consider a population of 10 people, it's likely that the majority of them is healthy, perhaps 8 or 9 in 10. If all of them would spit in a bowel, the dominating bacterial mix resulting from that would probably be good, since in general bacteria fight among each other, so the pathogens would lose out against the good bacteria. I'm no scientist but that is my main interpretation from reading into this subject. If this is so, then everyone ingesting the chicha drink is basically taking in a significant sample of good probiotics resulting from the average gut health of the locals.

8. Probiotics
9. Specific medicine targetting illnesses derived from nature

And then finally add the self believe in healing resulting from the whole environment, similar to the placebo effect.

10. Self believe/placebo effect
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#6
Probiotics and other aspects of maintaining a healthy gut flora is a very big thing. There's a couple threads over at RVF where Iconoclast007 is spreading more of his misinformation, this time pushing a carnivore diet. The reason an all meat diet helped him is probably because his gut flora was messed up so he couldn't digest fiber properly. Meat digests in the stomach (from hydrochloric acid) and doesn't require gut flora, which is probably why this diet provided immediate relief for him. But it's a bad long term solution. Mostly meat plus some vegetables, preferably probiotics like sauerkraut, would be much better, so as to provide some fiber to maintain healthy gut flora.

Among other things, a healthy gut flora creates a layer of protective mucus on the walls of the intestine to prevent pathogens from crossing into the bloodstream. Cats and other true carnivores have a very short intestine, plus stronger concentration of acid in the stomach and other ways of coping with pathogens, so this is not an issue for true carnivores like it is with omnivores. Lack of that mucus barrier is probably why Iconoclast 007 was always getting sick in the past, before he switched to his all meat diet. Right now, Iconoclast007 is lucking out by only encountering pathogen-free meat, but if he ever encounters even slightly dirty meat, he will get very sick due to his weakened intestine. In addition to regular consumption of fiber and probiotics, he probably needs a fecal transplant at this point because of how messed up he's made himself with that all meat diet.

PS Since you mention Ayahuasca, note that Iconoclast007 also took some sort of hallucinogen, forget exactly what, which is when he learned he was a carnivore (specifically, a leopard internally with human outer form) rather than an omnivore like other humans, our ape ancestors, bears, pigs, rats, etc. Easy test of omnivore versus carnivore is obvious: put a plate loaded with meat, potatoes. fruit, nuts, etc in front of a hungry animal and watch what happens. Omnivore eats everything, carnivore eats just meat and won't touch other items no matter how hungry. (Dogs are carnivores but will eat cooked starches like bread and potatoes if nothing else available, because they have adapted to limited amounts cooked starches by long association with humans. You can also sneak cooked starches into cat food, but this will cause obesity and diabetes eventually in the poor cat.) On the other hand, it is possible that a mostly meat diet, plus sauerkraut or other veggies to feed gut flora, might be healthier than a high carb diet, even for omnivores. Personally, I eay a high carb diet because that's what I like (mostly starch with just a little meat, fish or dairy each day), but I'm open to the possibility this is not optimal.

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor, yadda, yadda yadda, but neither are those shamans
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#7
Dogs will eat mostly anything, some street dogs will only stick to meat but put out some ice cream or a steak and it will be a hard choice for a lot of dogs. My lab ate everything in moderation and lived a healthy life until he had a stroke at 14.

I was watching this show on youtube last night about vertical farming, it's pretty interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ww2TP_tU7o
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#8
Dogs won't eat fuits or nuts. Cooked starches are digestible by carnivores because carnivores must be able to digest glycogen (bound form of glucose or blood sugar) present in muscle tissue and liver, and cooked starches are very close to glucose. Ice cream is mostly animal fat and protein by calories, plus the sugar is half glucose which they can digest. The other half of the sugar is fructose, which they they just shit out.

Labs and Golden Retrievers have a genetic defect such that they always feel hungry, no matter how much they eat. Specifically, missing some satiety hormone. That's why these breeds are so easy to train. They'll do anything for more food and will eat anything that is even partially digestible.
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#9
(11-13-2019, 05:05 PM)shemp Wrote: Dogs won't eat fuits or nuts. Cooked starches are digestible by carnivores because carnivores must be able to digest glycogen (bound form of glucose or blood sugar) present in muscle tissue and liver, and cooked starches are very close to glucose. Ice cream is mostly animal fat and protein by calories, plus the sugar is half glucose which they can digest. The other half of the sugar is fructose, which they they just shit out.

Labs and Golden Retrievers have a genetic defect such that they always feel hungry, no matter how much they eat. Specifically, missing some satiety hormone. That's why these breeds are so easy to train. They'll do anything for more food and will eat anything that is even partially digestible.

Shemp have you ever owned or interacted with a dog? Dogs will eat fruit and nuts. Labs are easy to train because they are smart and most breeds will become fat fucks if they are able to. 

Your post really comes across as retarded.
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#10
The genetic defect in labs was only discovered recently. Google it. Did I trigger you somehow?
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#11
(11-16-2019, 07:26 PM)shemp Wrote: The genetic defect in labs was only discovered recently. Google it. Did I trigger you somehow?

No, you didn't trigger anyone. I used to defend you but you're just an old whoremongering faggot, I'm sure there are P4P forums where you'd fit in better.
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#12
I’ve had some indigenous experiences. Thems are some crazy bitches .... but kinky.
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#13
I talked to a medicine man today in Mexico.  He recommended not taking Ayahuasca right away if you have no prior experience and doesn't do the large groups because the energies of each person are very different.  He recommended a treatment over several sessions with Xanga, Sapito, Kambo, and Rape, that work on shorter time frames - about 15 minutes each.   I might not even need Ayahuasca. The Ayahuasca is a powerful medicine that can go for 5 hours.  Doing this in a large group is like learning to swim by having someone throw you in the water.  You sink or swim.
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#14
It is no secret that indigenous peoples around the world walked barefoot or with thin leather shoes for millenia.  This is less due to the lack of shoe technology at the time and more to do with the knowledge that staying physically grounded to the earth came with physical and mental healing benefits.

I heard about the new wellness practice of grounding or earthing some time ago.  It is essentially standing or sitting in on damp earth, on wet sand, or even rock so the earth's negative electron charge can connect to your body and activate healing effects.

Yes, it sounds hokey as all hell, but I tried it for the first time today for 5 minutes in the grass while waiting for my food delivery and I immediately began to feel better both physically and mentally.  I cannot explain the exact physiological processes affected but more and more people are swearing by this.

It costs nothing and my usual skeptical self was made a believer to the point where i will incorporate it several times a week if not everyday.  I encourage everyone to give it a try and note the differences both immediate and long term.
Have you ever noticed it is your haters who obsessively read your every post, comment on them with the most emotion, and expend so much energy desperately trying to engage you?  It's because haters are your greatest, most loyal, and dedicated fans; they just have not come to terms with it yet.  Enjoy them because they are the surest sign that you're slaying it in life!  Big Grin
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#15
I've been on a major Terence McKenna buzz lately. This one in particular is a gem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzmeBkrBcOU
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#16
Lot's of headway being made in the treatment of traumatic brain injury, PTSD, and opioid/alcohol addiction using plant-based psychedelics. Very strong evidence of efficacy. If it really interests you, look up: ibogaine, 5meo-DMT, and micro-dosing psilocybine...
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#17
Iboga is some next level shit. I actually had the chance to do it in West Africa, but since I don't really have a need for it, I thought it would be an unwarranted risk (also being alone in those places with local medicine men I don't know). Some of the stories are insane.... ranging from several days in a coma state to visiting the dead and revising your whole life in flashes.

I wrote extensively about ayahuasca as well before. I'll make a separate thread about that probably soon.
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#18
(12-09-2019, 08:53 PM)Rottenapple Wrote: Iboga is some next level shit. I actually had the chance to do it in West Africa, but since I don't really have a need for it, I thought it would be an unwarranted risk (also being alone in those places with local medicine men I don't know). Some of the stories are insane.... ranging from several days in a coma state to visiting the dead and revising your whole life in flashes.

I wrote extensively about ayahuasca as well before. I'll make a separate thread about that probably soon.

Yes, there are some medical concerns when using Ibogaine.  There is a host of pharmaceuticals, illicit drugs, and alcohol that must be avoided for at least 2 weeks before treatment.  Like you, there is no way I would take that risk with a medicine man/shaman in Africa.  That's a pretty big risk.

There are clinics that will do ibogaine treatment. You are in a clinic scenario with doctors, nurses, paramedics, after you've had a physical and a clean urinalysis.  You are checked for any adverse heart conditions with a 12-lead EKG beforehand, you are hooked to a heart monitor during the treatment, and you have an IV port inserted in case of a medical emergency.  This greatly mitigates the risks.  I think there have only been 12-16 reported deaths associated with ibogaine treatment and those were all in people with massive opioid addictions.  The data doesn't distinguish if the patients used other drugs following the treatment, nor if they had pre-existing conditions that should have excluded them from treatment.
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#19
I did a sapito session in Mexico.  It permanently shattered my materialistic view of the world.  I thought I was going to die several times and experienced samadhi.  The shaman said that sapito is masculine and gets right to the point lasting about 15 minutes producing intense visions, whereas Ayahuasca is feminine and gently roles through about 5 hours.  I don't think I will take Sapito again.  It is too powerful.  I am really interested in something that will help me be more effective in the world and work through issues and I have no interest in entertainment.
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#20
(11-13-2019, 03:44 AM)shemp Wrote: Doctors don't actually heal broken bones and most other illnesses. Your own body does the healing. You can actually watch the healing in progress if you cut yourself. First a scab forms, then a week later the skin is back to normal. With respect to broken bones and other trauma, doctors just clean the mess up, put the pieces more or less back where they belong, then your own body does the actual healing.

There are also a limited number of poisons that doctors use to combat foreign pathogens (bacteria, parasites, etc). These poisons work on the principle that they are more damaging to the pathogen than your own body. Many of these poisons are plant-based. Perhaps these shamans have a few such poisons at their disposal that western doctors lack. But pathogens are not that common. Most modern illnesses are systemic (heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, cancer, Alzheimer's, etc) and western doctors can do very little to prevent or cure systemic illnesses. Your own body needs to do the healing.

Thus the most important thing you can do to get healthy and stay healthy is to maximize your own body's healing potential. And the most important way to do that is get rid is stress. Basically, the body has two modes, stressed and non-stressed, roughly corresponding to sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. Stress mode is for away running from lions and whatnot: shut down digestion and immune system, release all resources for use by muscles so you can run and fight better, unable to sleep, brain focuses on short-term thinking. Non-stressed mode is the opposite: most resources go to digestion and immune system, feeling of laziness on muscles, easy to sleep, brain able to think long term. Modern society tends to keep people in the stressed state far more than is healthy. Manospshere especially encourages the stress state: work hard, play hard, take extra testosterone, slam weights around, etc.

I suspect a lot of the "miracles" of these shamans are a result of putting a person who has been highly stresed for a very long time into the non-stress mode, so that the patient's own body can finally start healing itself. If healing has been delayed for a long time, the sudden release of this backlogged healing power could easily produce very rapid results.

I assume you are also shemp on rvf, I like many of your post, you are an inteligent homo sapien Big Grin
I had once an indigenous encounter in the Amazon region of Peru and another but extremely weird one in the Trobriands Islands on kiriwina island. It was more the true black magic from the 1700 but very real indeed.
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