Lifting is for girls?
#1
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Bond in 1960

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Bond in 2001

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We know about the sexual arms race going on among men in the West. Guys have calculated the risk/reward ratio and get results by juicing. I'm not criticising this in itself. But I am concerned about the general trend towards male beautification.

A relative of mine works for a cosmetics company. She told me how, for years, the industry was seeking to crack the male market, and exploit their insecurities. With protein powder, they found their meal ticket. This video really made me think.





Every single actor in this video has the same complaint. Their issue is not going to the gym. it is constantly, constantly eating. Hollywood actors are paid to look sexy. What kind of time and energy investment is this for average dude?

In other words, we’ve gone well past the point where this is natural. Past the point where it is sustainable. And maybe even past the point where it is masculine.

Look at Zyzz prancing and preening around. I can’t take him seriously as a male. There’s a reason why Russian women suspect that lifting is gay. Not agreeing, just saying.

SEA is one of the last places where being big is not that big a deal. And yet in the subway stations in Bangkok, protein powder is on sale. Colombia too is now selling mountains of the stuff.

Anyway dudes I’m just floating ideas. I don’t mean this as an attack. I’m just wondering where all this is leading on a social level.
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#2
I don't know the point about the Bond comparison, but Sean Connery was a heavy lifter.
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#3
The key is not to get obsessed with it.

There is a huge difference between the average guy who doesn't exercise and someone who follows a decent lifting program even 3 times a week.

Those guys on hollywood have to be on strict diets to gain or lose weight for a certain role. Pretty much every muscular actor used enhancers to get big.

In my opinion every man should lift weights at least 3 times a week unless you practice a sport or have a physical labour type of job.
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#4
Does OP even lift ? Big Grin
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#5
How much you have to eat usually depends on your genetics. I don't actually have to eat a ton to put on muscle, not like I had to when i was 16. And as a traveler getting the rock size would be pretty tough. I'm not a believer in getting huge, because the dedication is just too much. But I am a believer in being strong. I just feel it is part of being a man. That doesn't mean you have to bench press 400 lbs, but just enough to take care of yourself. Another good reason to lift while traveling is that, one thing that I have noticed, is bad things usually happen to guys who look like easy targets. Who wants to rob somebody who looks intimidating? And looking intimidating outside of the west and europe doesn't take body-builder type size. So in that sense lifting could really help you, even help keep you safe.

Then finally, it helps with girls. I wouldn't say I lift for girls, not anymore. I lift because I have noticed I am happier getting some type of exercise, because it raises my testosterone, because it helps me in sports, because it makes me feel more comfortable in a lot of situations and ok, I lift to look good in pictures which I guess is mostly just about getting laid, so in that aspect I do it for girls. I just think there are so many benefits and so few drawbacks, that it makes sense. I only lift 2-3 times a week. A lot of times its basketball once a week, lifting 2 times. I get strong (not jacked), I feel good and i'm happy.
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#6
The main reason I lift is to prevent injuries. It sucks to live in physical pain, and lifting properly can help prevent a lot of it. Getting jacked and looking pretty is for gay guys. You'll notice this if you go to a party beach destination such as Ibiza. All of the gays are jacked up. They are the ones who will be impressed with your muscles. Lift for the sake of your health, not vanity reasons.
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#7
Society these days definitely places a higher value on the well muscled man.

I remember watching a show recently that mentioned the way action figures changed over the years. The original G.I. Joe’s, whilst lean, were not as bulky as their more recent descendants.

The peak were the action figures from Masters of the Universe in the 80’s, jacked and ripped with aesthetics informed by the golden age of bodybuilding. This undoubtedly has an impact on a young child’s subconscious mind, whereby the image is reinforced as something favourable to be a force for good (or evil for that matter). Lee Priest, one of Australia’s most successful and highly respected bodybuilders attributes his entry into the sport to being influenced by MOTU.

Then of course you have the rise of the hyper-masculine action hero in the 80’s which also appeals to a child’s sense of adventure. Couple that with the increasing accessibility of such films via home rentals and a perfect storm in terms of bombarding the senses really was created, so is it any wonder there has been an uptick in the pursuit of a fuller frame in the last few decades.

Notwithstanding the above influences, lifting (whether natty or on roids) certainly has its benefits both physiologically and psychologically and any man with an eye on achieving a healthy, fulfilling and long life should not discount the impact lifting has.
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#8
Definitely a lot of men feel insecure nowadays and so try to compensate by exaggerated displays of stereotypical masculinity: huge muscles, loud motorcycles, MMA, eating nothing but meat, etc. Worst is when they resort to chemicals and plastic surgery. Case in point is BlackDragan (https://blackdragonblog.com/2018/12/27/n...s-you-age/). TRT: check. Hair implant: check. Botox: check. Obessively applying skin moisturizer morning and evening: check. Planning for more plastic surgery (face lifts, etc) in the future: check.

For the record, I do morning calisthenics and yoga, and I am careful about my health in other ways. If you like lifting or martial arts, go for it. But don't expect to defeat a fat and out-of-shape opponent armed with a gun, or a gang of scrawny opponents armed with knives or bats.
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#9
I'm a pretty lean 90kg and don't need to lift much or eat a special diet to sustain that. Just muay thai and weights 1-2x a week. That said - I've never lived in a place (VN) where it mattered the least. It might even be a net negative lol. Intimidates men and women here alike. In the West, it'd be a plus for sure though.

But generally speaking, there is no piece of manosphere advice that is more blown out of proportion than lifting/getting hyooge. If you look like a twig, lift. If you're fat, diet. Very very few women are into gym rats. Everybody outside those extremes just needs to do something physical. Yoga, mma, run, calisthentics, tango. Doesn't matter.

I'd also say cardio and flexibility are more important than lifting. Throw a meathead into a muay thai or BBJ gym and he gets obliterated by guys half his size. I've been there - it's humbling.
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#10
I’m 70kg and 180 cm and I get shit from girls I meet like 90% of the time if from tinder. This is in Vietnam where most girls are tiny anyway. Still smash good proportion but definitely motivates me to do something about it. Aiming to get to at least 80kg with same fat %.
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#11
I think I got the most eye fucking around 80kg to be honest. I was 67 kg when i started uni and that was definitely too scrawny lol.
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#12
It's the 80/20 rule. The small amount of effort required to clean up your diet, keep your weight under control, and do the big lifts two or three times a week is going to get most of your results, where the obsessive and meticulous level of lifting beyond that isn't going to pay off unless you're in a profession where it'll earn you money.

If it gives you more confidence with women, that's great, but might point to inner game issues, and more than that, is an excessive investment in women, who should be a side pursuit if you've got the rest of your life on-point.

Every man should pay attention to basic nutrition and fitness and know their bodies. High blood pressure, high blood sugar, and excess body fat from a bad diet and sedentary lifestyle are real issues that will sneak up on you if you don't, and they will age you prematurely, make you suffer, and put you in the ground. Long-term damage resulting from bad movement patterns, muscle imbalances, and poor posture isn't much better. On the other hand, very, very few men are going to get an ROI on breaking up their meals into six small servings a day because they're worried about going catabolic or trying so hard to get big that they bring about back and shoulder injuries. That's the stuff that works out to a net loss for nearly everyone at the end.
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#13
(05-28-2019, 07:12 AM)SpecialEd Wrote: I'm a pretty lean 90kg and don't need to lift much or eat a special diet to sustain that. Just muay thai and weights 1-2x a week. That said - I've never lived in a place (VN) where it mattered the least. It might even be a net negative lol. Intimidates men and women here alike. In the West, it'd be a plus for sure though.

But generally speaking, there is no piece of manosphere advice that is more blown out of proportion than lifting/getting hyooge. If you look like a twig, lift. If you're fat, diet. Very very few women are into gym rats. Everybody outside those extremes just needs to do something physical. Yoga, mma, run, calisthentics, tango. Doesn't matter.

I'd also say cardio and flexibility are more important than lifting. Throw a meathead into a muay thai or BBJ gym and he gets obliterated by guys half his size. I've been there - it's humbling.

My ex was from Vietnam. She lifted a lot and had an American fitness girl's physique and a booty. She said, "In Vietnam, no girls look like me. They are all super skinny there. They don't like people with muscles there, it's not "the look"."

As for lifting vs cardio/martial arts, why not do both? Best of both worlds. Look big, tough and actually BE tough.
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#14
(05-27-2019, 09:44 PM)churros Wrote: Bond in 1960

Zyzz prancing and preening ... I can’t take him seriously as a male.

(05-27-2019, 10:39 PM)Rocha Wrote: Sean Connery was a heavy lifter.

Yes, Sean Connery competed in Mr. America.  Zyzz is dead.[Image: enhanced-buzz-15113-1354215658-8.jpg?dow...ormat=auto]
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#15
I used to be considerably bigger and more muscular than I am now. Strength training.

A few years back now I stopped lifting weights really as my body was just falling apart at 33/34.

These days I exclusively train Muay Thai but I'm beginning to get too many injuries for that too. Quite depressing really, but anyway.


It's an interesting discussion but is definitely Country and perhaps class dependant.

Here in the UK being muscular beyond a physique that could be achieved with bodyweight exercise mostly is still a working class pursuit. Unless one happens to be a pro sportsman.

This is important in a class stratified society like ours.

Perhaps it is my age or the fact I'm massively richer than I was in my early 30s but the quality of women I get these days is magnitudes higher than back then.

Something to bear in mind, anyway.
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#16
(05-29-2019, 07:24 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote: I used to be considerably bigger and more muscular than I am now. Strength training.

A few years back now I stopped lifting weights really as my body was just falling apart at 33/34.

These days I exclusively train Muay Thai but I'm beginning to get too many injuries for that too. Quite depressing really, but anyway.


It's an interesting discussion but is definitely Country and perhaps class dependant.

Here in the UK being muscular beyond a physique that could be achieved with bodyweight exercise mostly is still a working class pursuit. Unless one happens to be a pro sportsman.

This is important in a class stratified society like ours.

Perhaps it is my age or the fact I'm massively richer than I was in my early 30s but the quality of women I get these days is magnitudes higher than back then.

Something to bear in mind, anyway.

I think the 1st thread I posted on DooshV asked about the obsession with "bodybuilding for everyone".
Doosh previously even made a comment that "men will need to take steroids soon just to get laid"! (WTF!)
In England notice middle class types eg lawyers/doctors often saying "I don't want to look like a meathead". But working class bars/nightclubs seem to have a huge proportion of big built men eg 17inch+ arms at 5'8 etc

My lean weight has varied by about 55 lbs (I'm just under 6 feet) over the years and I notice differences in reaction.
I find lots of mass is counter productive to my martial arts (especially traditional+Chinese arts). Nowadays I like being 13.5 to 14 stone and lean. Its a nice balance.

I think the muscle over-obsession was created by the supplements/protein industry. The way they are selling it for women's bodies is especially nauseating for me. 20 yrs ago when I was a kid, you were either lean or sometimes big. But the very big AND very lean we see regularly today was quite rare, even in gyms.Lots of people seem to be overtraining, or obsessed with that extra 0.5 inch on their biceps. When women (on average) atleast would prob want to see 2 or more inches off their man's biceps and an increase in another area of a man's life eg more time spent doing other things.

Personally I think there's a place for all types from the skinny Jaggers and Snoops, the slim+defined Beckhams, all the way to the Schwartzneggers.
To me, its like clothes - conveying your identity then finding connections. If we all looked the same, women probably wouldn't appreciate male physiques.

PS cutting out the rigorous heavy squats I wonder if I've actually grown a little.
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#17
(05-28-2019, 03:40 PM)Checkmat Wrote:
(05-28-2019, 07:12 AM)SpecialEd Wrote: I'm a pretty lean 90kg and don't need to lift much or eat a special diet to sustain that. Just muay thai and weights 1-2x a week. That said - I've never lived in a place (VN) where it mattered the least. It might even be a net negative lol. Intimidates men and women here alike. In the West, it'd be a plus for sure though.

But generally speaking, there is no piece of manosphere advice that is more blown out of proportion than lifting/getting hyooge. If you look like a twig, lift. If you're fat, diet. Very very few women are into gym rats. Everybody outside those extremes just needs to do something physical. Yoga, mma, run, calisthentics, tango. Doesn't matter.

I'd also say cardio and flexibility are more important than lifting. Throw a meathead into a muay thai or BBJ gym and he gets obliterated by guys half his size. I've been there - it's humbling.

As for lifting vs cardio/martial arts, why not do both? Best of both worlds. Look big, tough and actually BE tough.

Logical but it doesnt pan out in reality. Heavy pressing hurts shoulder mobility and takes a lot of the explosiveness out of ones punches. Also extra muscle mass makes my cardio suffer noticeably.

The disciplines just dont combine that well.

(05-29-2019, 07:24 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote: I used to be considerably bigger and more muscular than I am now. Strength training.

A few years back now I stopped lifting weights really as my body was just falling apart at 33/34.

These days I exclusively train Muay Thai but I'm beginning to get too many injuries for that too. Quite depressing really, but anyway.

Interesting. While i much prefer muay thai/boxing over weight lifting and feel like my fitness now is much less 1 dimensional, it is hard on the body. Been feeling it in my joints lately.

With weightlifting i never had an injury outside of squats which i dropped. I think a lot of this depends on your rep range. I lift heavy but more in the bodybuilding range.
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#18
(05-29-2019, 07:24 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote: Here in the UK being muscular beyond a physique that could be achieved with bodyweight exercise mostly is still a working class pursuit. Unless one happens to be a pro sportsman.

This is important in a class stratified society like ours.

My experiences are completely at odds with this. In my experience the ideal for most middle class British (and Kiwi, S.African, Irish, and Australian) girls in their 20s these days is a professional rugby player. Not a fattish forward, but someone playing 9 to 15. Nowhere near a bodybuilder physique, but definitely far more than bodyweight exercise.  A huge chunk of middle class guys these days lift as a result, as they're pursuing the goal of fitting that dream. Every time I go to an event with a younger crowd I'm shocked at how many guys look like they lift - and this is in pretty much exclusively middle class clubs or gigs.

Its definitely not limited to pro sportsmen either though, I've known huge numbers of amateur rugby players in great shape. 95%+ middle or upper class guys. Anyone playing rugby from 16 years old up these days for either school, uni or local club is lifting weights pretty seriously. If they don't, they'll get flattened. And when pretty much every guy who plays rugby lifts seriously it then raises the bar for everyone - and results in lots of non athletes lifting, too. Because its the dominant sport in a lot of middle class schools/areas.

I think age may be a factor in our differing experiences, though. I know rugby before the 2000s, in the amateur days, didn't have that weightlifting culture. So girls hadn't been exposed to that ideal - and developed that expectation/desire.


More generally, I fully agree with Shifty & 20Nations posts on this. Lifting has huge amounts of benefits to a man: the general feeling of well being, testosterone levels, cardiovascular health, the ego boost, the attention from girls. If you spend 3 hours a week doing it, regularly, you can get all of these. It doesn't require a huge time, money, or effort commitment - yet 80% of men don't bother. Its very easy to bring yourself up to a level where you're in the top 20% of men.

I don't think its every "girly", but it can be a sign of vanity. If you're a heavy lifter, but dress fairly plainly, have a fairly generic hair cut etc I don't think anyone will assume you're girly - they'll just assume you're a strength athlete of some sort. The problem arises when you combine it with putting a shitload of effort into your hair and wearing make-up/fake tan etc. Or wearing skin tight, overly fashionable clothing. Then you've got multiple "vanity" yellow flags, that add up to a red flag as a whole. Zyzz being a perfect example.
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#19
(05-30-2019, 03:56 PM)zatara Wrote:
(05-29-2019, 07:24 PM)CrashBangWallop Wrote: Here in the UK being muscular beyond a physique that could be achieved with bodyweight exercise mostly is still a working class pursuit. Unless one happens to be a pro sportsman.

This is important in a class stratified society like ours.

My experiences are completely at odds with this. In my experience the ideal for most middle class British (and Kiwi, S.African, Irish, and Australian) girls in their 20s these days is a professional rugby player. Not a fattish forward, but someone playing 9 to 15. Nowhere near a bodybuilder physique, but definitely far more than bodyweight exercise.  A huge chunk of middle class guys these days lift as a result, as they're pursuing the goal of fitting that dream. Every time I go to an event with a younger crowd I'm shocked at how many guys look like they lift - and this is in pretty much exclusively middle class clubs or gigs.

Its definitely not limited to pro sportsmen either though, I've known huge numbers of amateur rugby players in great shape. 95%+ middle or upper class guys. Anyone playing rugby from 16 years old up these days for either school, uni or local club is lifting weights pretty seriously. If they don't, they'll get flattened. And when pretty much every guy who plays rugby lifts seriously it then raises the bar for everyone - and results in lots of non athletes lifting, too. Because its the dominant sport in a lot of middle class schools/areas.

I think age may be a factor in our differing experiences, though. I know rugby before the 2000s, in the amateur days, didn't have that weightlifting culture. So girls hadn't been exposed to that ideal - and developed that expectation/desire.


More generally, I fully agree with Shifty & 20Nations posts on this. Lifting has huge amounts of benefits to a man: the general feeling of well being, testosterone levels, cardiovascular health, the ego boost, the attention from girls. If you spend 3 hours a week doing it, regularly, you can get all of these. It doesn't require a huge time, money, or effort commitment - yet 80% of men don't bother. Its very easy to bring yourself up to a level where you're in the top 20% of men.

I don't think its every "girly", but it can be a sign of vanity. If you're a heavy lifter, but dress fairly plainly, have a fairly generic hair cut etc I don't think anyone will assume you're girly - they'll just assume you're a strength athlete of some sort. The problem arises when you combine it with putting a shitload of effort into your hair and wearing make-up/fake tan etc. Or wearing skin tight, overly fashionable clothing. Then you've got multiple "vanity" yellow flags, that add up to a red flag as a whole. Zyzz being a perfect example.

Re Britain:-
I think working class people, weight training for muscle is very usual. But middle class people, lots of mass is more restricted to certain groups. I was going to mention rugby players, rowers as middle class sports people. You could possibly add landowning farmers etc. It might be less common today, but traditionally middle class people were taller and even bigger boned than working class..on average. I see working class pubs and stocky Mike Tyson builds are very common, but very rare say in Surrey wine bars etc.
As for Australia, NZ, white S Africans etc ie rugby nations, I think adding mass is an interest whether its working or middle class.

Also the terms are difficult to define. In England I think of middle class as the wealthiest 6/8% of the population, private schools and associated occupations eg law, big 6 accountants etc etc So its not even "middle" by most measures.

Overall though I think a reasonable level of muscle can't harm. Its only when its obsessive stuff do women really say "no it looks unnatural".
I only really feel fit if I have a bit of muscle mass thats being worked. My traditional Chinese martial arts instructor always used to say "big muscles, small brain" Big Grin 
Although I think what he was saying was that "you should develop other methods of power too".
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#20
To clarify, the middle class in England is comprised of school teachers, police officers, small shop keepers, nurses etc. These are rarely people from wealthy families or privately educated etc.

Perhaps they also engage in bodybuilding these days. I don't really know I suppose as I don't have much to do with them. Without wishing to sound elitist, they are all lower/working class to me (and to ensure there is no misunderstanding, that's absolutely fine and no doubt the majority are lovely, hard working folks). I suppose the Queen would say the same about me haha.

I was really referring to the higher ends of society. I should have been clearer.

However Aussies and Saffers etc have no bearing whatsoever on a discussion about the English specifically. Lovely as they may be, Colonials are as distant cousins as those across the pond.

As for rugby...well the oiks have spoiled it since professionalism.
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