The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics)
(01-23-2020, 04:14 PM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: There is an estimate that already 20% of Bitcoin is both permanently lost and unrecoverable for a variety of reasons including lost or destroyed wallets, unknown passwords, deceased owners, and other rather simple reasons.  


Yep... we have discussed some of those kinds of availability of BTC supply matters previously. Of course, we have scarcity in bitcoin in a lot of different ways, and even Satoshi's coins is thought to be in a "likely never to move" category, too.

(01-23-2020, 04:14 PM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: Peter Schiff just reported that his personal Bitcoin is forever lost due to his forgetting his hard wallet password.  Granted, that’s a boneheaded move on an epic level but the extent of of the “deadcoin” and of the people losing access is something to think about.

That Peter Schiff story has cut both ways. He is largely just an attention whore who is just trying to bring negative light on bitcoin, when it just makes him look like an incompetent dweeb.

The latest tweet seems to have been that he regained access to his coins and he even attempts to shed that in a negative light.

https://twitter.com/peterschiff/status/1...42592?s=21

I had also read somewhere that Blockchain.com wallet people were helping out that scheming fucktwat to regain access or to attempt to trouble shoot his situation. The blockchain.com folks have claimed previously that they do not have any way to access the private keys of their members.. not sure exactly how that works or how trustworthy those kinds of lack of access proclamations are... surely, we do know that if you are the sole manager of your keys, you tend to have pretty BIG responsibilities to make sure that you back them up because if you lose access or backups, you are fucked out of your coins through your own lack of taking adequate responsibilities.
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Gemini seems to be striving to get higher levels of custody insurance and certifications in a variety of ways to attempt to inspire greater institutional confidence in using their various services.

https://twitter.com/Gemini/status/1220321191744937984

https://cointelegraph.com/news/deloitte-...evaluation

https://www.coindesk.com/winklevoss-led-...ce-company
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Here's an interesting article about a new product that is called a BTC ETP (exchange traded product) purportedly increases the ability to short bitcoin, along with other around 11 other crypto currencies such as ethereum and ripple.  

Maybe they will end up getting RECKT if BTC prices continue to go up while they are betting against them... not really sure... and I am not sure what difference there would be in terms of risk regarding bitcoin, versus one of the supposed shitcoins in terms of how likely or unlikely to get reckt and in terms of really being able to take possession of assets or perhaps needing the underlying asset in order to short it.

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/5382...-movements
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Here's some comic relief regarding the halvening, and likely some people have these kinds of thoughts


https://twitter.com/infamousXBT/status/1...8835179520

Quote:


>>>>>

i dont want 2 sound dum but if  $BTC  halves in june does my 0.5btc become 0.2??

plz help time is running out<<<<
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Here's a nice little article from today showing us an updated status of Taproot.

https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoins-privac...ep-forward
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Article showing that Hawaii has introduced a bill that provides guidelines to banks to be able to custody crypto currencies.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/hawaii-in...to-custody

Has not yet passed into law but still shows a kind of increase in interest in such direction.
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I just came across this basic video from 2013, again, and I recall watching it in 2014 or 2015, and even though it is a bit of an older video, it does show quite a few great basic ideas and even predictive powers concerning BTC's then (and likely ongoing) price trajectory.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHUPPYzzZrI
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Here's an update from an article from yesterday on the QuadrigaCX shenanigans... which is asserting that some of the funds of QuadrigaCX might have been held in the shady CryptoCapital entity in Panama.. which could provide some hope for some of the QuadrigaCX investors, perhaps... perhaps?

https://btcmanager.com/quadrigacx-funds-...o-capital/
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Here's a series of about five tweets that shows  BTC mining history

https://twitter.com/thetokenanalyst/stat...9432690688

[Image: EPEQlJKX0AAFCdg?format=jpg&name=small]

If you had not noticed, BTC hashrate has largely been continuing to go up, too... 

Looks like this:

https://www.blockchain.com/charts/hash-r...mespan=all
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(01-23-2020, 05:35 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:
(01-23-2020, 04:14 PM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: There is an estimate that already 20% of Bitcoin is both permanently lost and unrecoverable for a variety of reasons including lost or destroyed wallets, unknown passwords, deceased owners, and other rather simple reasons.  


Yep...  we have discussed some of those kinds of availability of BTC supply matters previously.  Of course, we have scarcity in bitcoin in a lot of different ways, and even Satoshi's coins is thought to be in a "likely never to move" category, too.  

(01-23-2020, 04:14 PM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: Peter Schiff just reported that his personal Bitcoin is forever lost due to his forgetting his hard wallet password.  Granted, that’s a boneheaded move on an epic level but the extent of of the “deadcoin” and of the people losing access is something to think about.

That Peter Schiff story has cut both ways.  He is largely just an attention whore who is just trying to bring negative light on bitcoin, when it just makes him look like an incompetent dweeb.

The latest tweet seems to have been that he regained access to his coins and he even attempts to shed that in a negative light.

https://twitter.com/peterschiff/status/1...42592?s=21

I had also read somewhere that Blockchain.com wallet people were helping out that scheming fucktwat to regain access or to attempt to trouble shoot his situation.  The blockchain.com folks have claimed previously that they do not have any way to access the private keys of their members.. not sure exactly how that works or how trustworthy those kinds of lack of access proclamations are... surely, we do know that if you are the sole manager of your keys, you tend to have pretty BIG responsibilities to make sure that you back them up because if you lose access or backups, you are fucked out of your coins through your own lack of taking adequate responsibilities.
Well yes; as a seller of gold and gold products, Peter Schiff does have a financial and commercial interest in making Bitcoin seem bad because Bitcoin has been sucking away people who would otherwise be buying gold, but instead are opting for Bitcoin.  This has created a drag on the performance of Gold over the past several years.  So I get that.

But my point was not so much about Peter Schiff as it was the valid point he made about the dangers of not having unfettered access safekeeping of Bitcoin.  For example:

-Bitcoin holders using soft wallets will die off and if their heirs and if family members don't have the wallet keys (or wallet for that matter), it is dead bitcoin. 

-Bitcoin holders using hard wallets will lose them, have them stolen, seized by authorities, etc.  That very likely will result in dead Bitcoin.

For American owners of Bitcoin, things will get much worse when Congress and the IRS finally come out with FINCEN, FATCA, and tax reporting requirements.  That will ensnare legions of decent people into the dragnet of government seizures and prosecutions just as FATCA did with new offshore account self-reporting requirements.  

When I was thinking about jumping into the Bitcoin game, those considerations dissuaded me.  I even considered any Bitcoin I purchased, but that is a very new concept and currently prohibitively expensive thus defeating at least some of the purpose of owning it.   That is not even to mention my distrust of insurance companies who pay their attorneys millions of dollars a year to figure out ways to not have to pay expensive claims.

So these are just practical considerations that I have pondered.  It is not enough to say, "Just don't be a moron with your Bitcoin and you'll be fine."  People, being what they are, often have to be saved from themselves and while Bitcoin has been and will be a moneymaker for many, the practical risks of owning it in great measure just cause my better judgement to opt against owning it.
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(01-25-2020, 03:57 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote:
(01-23-2020, 05:35 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote: [edited out]
Well yes; as a seller of gold and gold products, Peter Schiff does have a financial and commercial interest in making Bitcoin seem bad because Bitcoin has been sucking away people who would otherwise be buying gold, but instead are opting for Bitcoin.  This has created a drag on the performance of Gold over the past several years.  So I get that.

Maybe I am starting to get a bit annoyed with Peter's ongoing playing of dumb. He could not be that dumb because he has been making a lot of the same lame kind of points for at least as long as I have been in the space (late 2013).


(01-25-2020, 03:57 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: But my point was not so much about Peter Schiff as it was the valid point he made about the dangers of not having unfettered access safekeeping of Bitcoin. 

I have my doubts about whether they are valid... of course, it is a bit more difficult to keep your own keys than it would be to have them with a third party. With bitcoin, you have the option to keep your keys with a third party if you want, too. Then you would have a claim to the bitcoin rather than the actual bitcoin. Same with gold. You can keep it yourself or you can keep it with a third party. You gotta be more careful in a variety of ways if you keep it with yourself.



(01-25-2020, 03:57 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: For example:

-Bitcoin holders using soft wallets will die off and if their heirs and if family members don't have the wallet keys (or wallet for that matter), it is dead bitcoin. 

What is the difference than if you had a stash of gold buried in the basement or some other location, but you did not tell anyone when you died? Similar idea. You can keep with a third party or not. You can also create some kind of "in case I die" plan too. Of course, if you have gold in a place that everyone knows, then it is not a big deal if you die, because the heirs are going to get the gold... so yeah, with bitcoin, you just need to figure out how to pass on your password, to the extent that you put adequate thought into the matter... and to the extent that your bitcoins are held by you rather than a third party.



(01-25-2020, 03:57 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: -Bitcoin holders using hard wallets will lose them, have them stolen, seized by authorities, etc.  That very likely will result in dead Bitcoin.

Huh? You are lumping together categories. If you lose access to your bitcois, then those are dead. But if they are stolen or seized, they are just in the possession of someone else.

(01-25-2020, 03:57 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: For American owners of Bitcoin, things will get much worse when Congress and the IRS finally come out with FINCEN, FATCA, and tax reporting requirements.  That will ensnare legions of decent people into the dragnet of government seizures and prosecutions just as FATCA did with new offshore account self-reporting requirements.  

Could make matters more complicated, so what does that mean? Don't buy bitcoin? or deal with whatever situation is present? We seem to be quite far from the seizure stage, so we have to get to the reporting requirements first, which may or may not happen.. and we can cross that bridge when we get there. Each guy can decide or consult with an attorney or accountant regarding how to treat his own situation.

You seem to be speculating a lot of negative stuff that might not even come close to your level of anticipated doom and gloom.

Furthermore, do you believe that there might be some risks if some governments were to attempt to be more strict than other governments in regards to bitcoin or taxes. I thought that there might be some positive developments too... Didn't I recently share some proposed legislation that would not require any reporting requirements for transactions of less than $200? So there could be both positive and negative regulatory developments. Seems a bit strange to get all doom and gloom about stuff that has not happened yet, and also when we seem in a channel in which there are decent justifications towards investing in bitcoin rather than sitting on the sidelines? Are you suggesting that guys should not get into bitcoin?


(01-25-2020, 03:57 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: When I was thinking about jumping into the Bitcoin game, those considerations dissuaded me. 

Well hopefully you are not going to lose too many opportunity costs based on those kinds of considerations. There was a lot of regulatory risk when I got in too (in late 2013), and some of those situations are better now, and some of them seem to be just exaggerated scare tactics that have existed through bitcoin's history.

I don't know if you recall some of china's crack down on bitcoin in late 2016.... some people thought that it was going to cause BTC's price to go down, and instead it seemed to have caused a lot of chinese people missing out on the 2017 bitcoin run. Similar with silkroad in 2013, some folks thought that it was the death of bitcoin and a 15x or so price increase came soon thereafter. There is always all kinds of dissuading bullshit, including the 2017 fork threats that ended up resolving in BTC's favor and causing a lot of fence sitters to miss out or to end up chasing the price up rather than buying during the period of uncertainty and fearmongering.

I doubt that anyone is suggesting to go all into bitcoin. I certainly am not. Mostly I had suggested that guys consider a 1% to 10% allocation into bitcoin, and of course, more importantly guys need to tailor their investment to their own particulars including assessing their: cashflow, other investments, view of bitcoin as compared with other investments, risk tolerance, timeline and skills, time and abilities to research and/or manage funds including whether going to get involved with trading.

(01-25-2020, 03:57 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: I even considered any Bitcoin I purchased, but that is a very new concept and currently prohibitively expensive thus defeating at least some of the purpose of owning it.   That is not even to mention my distrust of insurance companies who pay their attorneys millions of dollars a year to figure out ways to not have to pay expensive claims.

I am not sure what you are talking about here. You can decide to invest at whatever level that you want, and probably the BIGGEST deal is setting up some accounts. You can dollar cost average $5 per week if you want, which is surely affordable for most people, and you likely can figure out how to report those kinds of numbers on your tax returns without even consulting with anyone. Of course, the more you buy or the more complicated your investment plan, the more likely you will have to consult about accounting and possibly other concerns that you have. Currently, bitcoin is treated as a capital gains, so you may not need to report anything until you sell.. but they did recently come out with a new check box on the tax form that you check if you have bought any cryptocurrency in 2019.. I doubt that they would get rid of that box in regards to the 2020 tax return, which would be next year.

(01-25-2020, 03:57 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: So these are just practical considerations that I have pondered.  It is not enough to say, "Just don't be a moron with your Bitcoin and you'll be fine."  People, being what they are, often have to be saved from themselves and while Bitcoin has been and will be a moneymaker for many, the practical risks of owning it in great measure just cause my better judgement to opt against owning it.

Sure some of these matters are evolving, and guys take different approaches, I am sure, regarding how they treat the matter.

Of course, for me, I have not considered possible tax consequences to dissuade me from investing into bitcoin. There is a bit of consulting that I do each year, though in terms of how to report some of the transactions that have happened during the year, so I will admit that some of that can be a bit uncomfortable until it is clarified, and sure it might also seem a bit unfair and even frustrating if requirements, and even checking a box on a tax form, is added or changed and that box was not present in earlier years.

Even though some of the changes might be frustrating, sometimes there can be relief to have some regulatory clarity, too. So, sure the more business that are involved in bitcoin and other crypto, the more inspired lawmakers become to figure out some kind of regulatory clarity, which sometimes can help some folks to jump in because at least some of the matters are addressed rather than left vague... but like you suggested, there continues to be some vagueness including your post that speculates about what might or could happen rather than attempting to describe what are current requirements.. which are not nearly as stringent as you are making them out to be...and I doubt that those requirements are really going to keep king daddy's prices from going up in the next year or two... so for example, today, it cost $8k to buy a bitcoin, but in 6 months it could cost a lot more, and also there could be some movement into quite high prices, without necessarily correcting back down... some people will feel left out.. but that is a choice that each guy has to make for himself.
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(01-25-2020, 04:43 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote: You seem to be speculating a lot of negative stuff that might not even come close to your level of anticipated doom and gloom.

Are you suggesting that guys should not get into bitcoin?
I don't see discussing the currently planned government regulation of Bitcoin ownership as being negative, I see it as being realistic about an inevitability.

Also, I am not suggesting anything about other guys getting into it or not.  I know you are very enthusiastic about it, but there are other legitimate views to consider so your being a bit less defensive about it would be a major plus in the thread.
 
I was simply relaying the issues I personally have with it so this thread can be more educational instead of one of groupthink.  

In the event of a future crash down to the $1000 to $2000 dollar range, I MIGHT consider that the risks are then outweighed by the rare opportunity for me to jump in on a speculative basis.  But unless that happens, I prefer to stick with investments that passively pay monthly streams of income.
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(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote:
(01-25-2020, 04:43 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote: You seem to be speculating a lot of negative stuff that might not even come close to your level of anticipated doom and gloom.

Are you suggesting that guys should not get into bitcoin?
I don't see discussing the currently planned government regulation of Bitcoin ownership as being negative, I see it as being realistic about an inevitability.

I don't really have any problem with you expressing your opinions about what way that you expect legislation to go, but it is one thing to talk about current requirements and another thing to speculate about what might happen, and to assert that it is inevitable when it likely is not.

Sure, maybe what you outline might happen, but it might not. There also might be a lot of avenues around making something less onerous than it seems. For example, you are asserting that there is going to be registration of bitcoin and then widescale confiscation of all of the bitcoin, and this is simply greatly speculative, and even difficult to actually see happening in a real kind of way, especially if you actually understand what bitcoin is, and there has also been a lot of financial institutions getting into bitcoin on a larger scale. Yeah, sure some of those institutions do not really allow the direct holding of bitcoin (because they custody it) such as CME and BAKKT, but they are also causing greater financialization of bitcoin, which makes it a lot less feasible that confiscation is even in any kind of medium term plan for government officials. Sure I get the motive that if they could they would confiscate all of it, but there is a problem with bitcoin in that it is world-wide and there would be a lot of issues if there were confiscation in some jurisdictions which would likely cause wack-a-mole type issues... or even force bitcoin underground, and we largely already got passed a lot of those concerns in 2013 and thereafter when there was a lot of acknowledgement acceptance of bitcoin that has not really engaged in any attempts to stifle bitcoin's growth.

(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: Also, I am not suggesting anything about other guys getting into it or not.  I know you are very enthusiastic about it, but there are other legitimate views to consider so your being a bit less defensive about it would be a major plus in the thread.

I doubt that we really need no coiners spreading FUD. Whether you call that defensive or not, but if you are speculating about things that only have loose connections with facts or likely happenings, then you seem to be causing more issues than you are helping.

If you are trying to educate the guys about things that they do not know, you better start coming up with some actual evidence, rather than merely asserting things that you believe is going to happen that really seems counter to actual evidence and actual things that guys like me who have been in the space, and you are just coming in and proclaiming doom and gloom and asserting that you have some kind of better claim to expertise or better knowledge.

(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: I was simply relaying the issues I personally have with it so this thread can be more educational instead of one of groupthink.  

The thread is not educational enough? I already stated my perspective in the op, which tends to be helping guys to figure out if they want to invest in bitcoin. There is no problem with you asserting that guys should not invest and provide some actual evidence that goes beyond pure speculation. Any of us can speculate take our positions or decisions to invest or not to invest or figure out our allocations based on various kinds of speculations. You said that you are afraid of regulation and afraid of reporting and afraid of confiscation.. which seems a bit much... but hey, that could cause you to have a smaller allocation in bitcoin or in your case choose to completely refuse to invest in bitcoin. If you choose to completely NOT invest, then you are merely coming here to save other guys from pro-bitcoin propaganda? You are engaging in a service?

(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: In the event of a future crash down to the $1000 to $2000 dollar range, I MIGHT consider that the risks are then outweighed by the rare opportunity for me to jump in on a speculative basis. 


Of course, the lower that you go with the price, the less chance that it has of happening. But since your price for entry is so low, it is likely that we will not be seeing you.

How about if the price goes up to $350k and then crashes back down to $40k? Have you thought about what you would do in that possible scenario? You are preparing for down, but not for up, perhaps? Lack of preparation frequently creates FOMO chasing after the asset, and I have seen that it is frequently better to prepare for both down and up, and frequently no coiners or bitcoin naysayers or fence sitters, have had issues, in the past, of mission bitcoin opportunities by preparing for down and not preparing for up. Seen it many times including at $500-ish, $2k-ish $4kish.... Hey maybe there is a chance for below $6k, but even that might be a stretch. Sometimes the price just doesn't go down, and you get left out if you are only preparing for down and not for up and at the same time you are lecturing doom and gloom to everyone else. That is not a new scenario... seen it many times in the past, even guys who are so damned smart because they sold on the way down and waiting for more down that does not end up happening. Maybe such down will happen this time? Maybe not?

(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: But unless that happens, I prefer to stick with investments that passively pay monthly streams of income.

Are you referring to various defi bullshit? Lots of people got screwed by variations of those recently too.. they were all the rave in 2017 and 2018.. but they kind of disappeared off the scene when they performed way the fuck worse than bitcoin in terms of holding any kind of value... but they are back, perhaps? They might have different names, now? But same concept, trying to earn income and then the underlying asset goes to shit, even though your supposed passive income is paid in that worthless asset.

Yeah right.. interest tends to be overblown, and bitcoin has a proven track record already of appreciating in value, so you don't really need the marketing of a pyramid scheme investment plan that supposedly pays to keep your coins for you or maybe they will help you by running off with your coins for some reason?

So, here, I might have to add you as an alt coin pumper..... so not only are you a no coiner, a bitcoin naysayer, you are a fence sitter and also an alt coin pumper? What else?

You don't have a better investment plan than that? Yet, you want to come to the bitcoin thread and balance out the bitcoin conversation with your purported passive income that you are going to get from some shitcoin(s)? Yeah right. Rolleyes Rolleyes Don't you need to come up with something better than that?
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(01-25-2020, 07:30 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:
(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote:
(01-25-2020, 04:43 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote: You seem to be speculating a lot of negative stuff that might not even come close to your level of anticipated doom and gloom.

Are you suggesting that guys should not get into bitcoin?
I don't see discussing the currently planned government regulation of Bitcoin ownership as being negative, I see it as being realistic about an inevitability.

I don't really have any problem with you expressing your opinions about what way that you expect legislation to go, but it is one thing to talk about current requirements and another thing to speculate about what might happen, and to assert that it is inevitable when it likely is not.

Sure, maybe what you outline might happen, but it might not. There also might be a lot of avenues around making something less onerous than it seems.  For example, you are asserting that there is going to be registration of bitcoin and then widescale confiscation of all of the bitcoin, and this is simply greatly speculative, and even difficult to actually see happening in a real kind of way, especially if you actually understand what bitcoin is, and there has also been a lot of financial institutions getting into bitcoin on a larger scale.  Yeah, sure some of those institutions do not really allow the direct holding of bitcoin (because they custody it) such as CME and BAKKT, but they are also causing greater financialization of bitcoin, which makes it a lot less feasible that confiscation is even in any kind of medium term plan for government officials.  Sure I get the motive that if they could they would confiscate all of it, but there is a problem with bitcoin in that it is world-wide and there would be a lot of issues if there were confiscation in some jurisdictions which would likely cause wack-a-mole type issues... or even force bitcoin underground, and we largely already got passed a lot of those concerns in 2013 and thereafter when there was a lot of acknowledgement acceptance of bitcoin that has not really engaged in any attempts to stifle bitcoin's growth.

(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: Also, I am not suggesting anything about other guys getting into it or not.  I know you are very enthusiastic about it, but there are other legitimate views to consider so your being a bit less defensive about it would be a major plus in the thread.

I doubt that we really need no coiners spreading FUD.  Whether you call that defensive or not, but if you are speculating about things that only have loose connections with facts or likely happenings, then you seem to be causing more issues than you are helping.  

If you are trying to educate the guys about things that they do not know, you better start coming up with some actual evidence, rather than merely asserting things that you believe is going to happen that really seems counter to actual evidence and actual things that guys like me who have been in the space, and you are just coming in and proclaiming doom and gloom and asserting that you have some kind of better claim to expertise or better knowledge.

(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: I was simply relaying the issues I personally have with it so this thread can be more educational instead of one of groupthink.  

The thread is not educational enough?  I already stated my perspective in the op, which tends to be helping guys to figure out if they want to invest in bitcoin.  There is no problem with you asserting that guys should not invest and provide some actual evidence that goes beyond pure speculation.  Any of us can speculate take our positions or decisions to invest or not to invest or figure out our allocations based on various kinds of speculations.  You said that you are afraid of regulation and afraid of reporting and afraid of confiscation.. which seems a bit much... but hey, that could cause you to have a smaller allocation in bitcoin or in your case choose to completely refuse to invest in bitcoin.  If you choose to completely NOT invest, then you are merely coming here to save other guys from pro-bitcoin propaganda? You are engaging in a service?

(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: In the event of a future crash down to the $1000 to $2000 dollar range, I MIGHT consider that the risks are then outweighed by the rare opportunity for me to jump in on a speculative basis. 


Of course, the lower that you go with the price, the less chance that it has of happening.  But since your price for entry is so low, it is likely that we will not be seeing you.

How about if the price goes up to $350k and then crashes back down to $40k?  Have you thought about what you would do in that possible scenario?  You are preparing for down, but not for up, perhaps?  Lack of preparation frequently creates FOMO chasing after the asset, and I have seen that it is frequently better to prepare for both down and up, and frequently no coiners or bitcoin naysayers or fence sitters, have had issues, in the past, of mission bitcoin opportunities by preparing for down and not preparing for up.  Seen it many times including at $500-ish, $2k-ish $4kish....   Hey maybe there is a chance for below $6k, but even that might be a stretch.  Sometimes the price just doesn't go down, and you get left out if you are only preparing for down and not for up and at the same time you are lecturing doom and gloom to everyone else.  That is not a new scenario... seen it many times in the past, even guys who are so damned smart because they sold on the way down and waiting for more down that does not end up happening.  Maybe such down will happen this time?  Maybe not?

(01-25-2020, 06:16 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: But unless that happens, I prefer to stick with investments that passively pay monthly streams of income.

Are you referring to various defi bullshit?   Lots of people got screwed by variations of those recently too.. they were all the rave in 2017 and 2018.. but they kind of disappeared off the scene when they performed way the fuck worse than bitcoin in terms of holding any kind of value... but they are back, perhaps?  They might have different names, now?  But same concept, trying to earn income and then the underlying asset goes to shit, even though your supposed passive income is paid in that worthless asset.  

Yeah right.. interest tends to be overblown, and bitcoin has a proven track record already of appreciating in value, so you don't really need the marketing of a pyramid scheme investment plan that supposedly pays to keep your coins for you or maybe they will help you by running off  with your coins for some reason?  

So, here, I might have to add you as an alt coin pumper..... so not only are you a no coiner, a bitcoin naysayer, you are a fence sitter and also an alt coin pumper?  What else?  

You don't have a better investment plan than that?  Yet, you want to come to the bitcoin thread and balance out the bitcoin conversation with your purported passive income that you are going to get from some shitcoin(s)?  Yeah right.   Rolleyes  Rolleyes   Don't you need to come up with something better than that?
Did you just equate discipline of passive income investing with "Defi?"  Oh dear...  I can't fault you for being unschooled in basic personal finance, but you are more of a project than I initially suspected. 

Word of advice....  If you're trying to promote the adoption of Bitcoin here, being obnoxious and dismissive about ongoing regulatory developments is not helping your cause.  I do understand how Bitcoin fanatics guys like yourself have developed chips on their shoulders due to having to defend Bitcoin at every turn, but you view it in a most unhealthy (almost religious) manner.

I wish you luck with your holdings, and I hope you can improve your ability to turn people on to it rather than off.
Favorite Countries:  Finland, Latvia, Ukraine, Serbia, Montenegro, Georgia, Japan, Argentina.

Countries For Future Travel:  Norway, Sweden, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bosnia, Macedonia, Moldova, Uzbekistan.
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(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote:
(01-25-2020, 07:30 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote: [edited out]
Did you just equate discipline of passive income investing with "Defi?"  Oh dear...  I can't fault you for being unschooled in basic personal finance, but you are more of a project than I initially suspected. 

You are devolving into nonsense talk, Contrarian Expatriate.

You made some vague reference to passive income without really explaining what the fuck you are talking about, and yeah, part of the defi marketing also involves passive income, and surely there are a lot of nonsensical passive income talking points out there. My response to your vague reference was largely attempting to get you to explain what the fuck you are talking about rather than my making some kind of assertion regarding whether an investment plan seems to be good on a personal investment level.

In any event, even though we might touch a lot upon personal finances in this thread, the thread is not about personal finances, it is about bitcoin... so you are seeming to devolve also into a lot of non-topicalness... and you seem to NOT even be trying to relate your comments to bitcoin.

So, can you at least attempt to bring it back, or are you too far gone into vagueness?

(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: Word of advice....  

Did anyone ask you for advice? I would ask you to try to figure out what the fuck you are talking about and even try to understand what is bitcoin before coming in with some vague ass speculative assertions and then thereafter going down the giving advice arena when you have hardly made any points at all except for perhaps engaging in a bunch of nonsensical distraction attempts. Your main point seems to be that you have chosen NOT to invest in bitcoin because you are concerned about regulatory uncertainties, but instead you have chosen to invest in some kind of vague passive income project that you have hardly even described.. maybe you can start a thread on your passive income project, since you are suggesting that it not related to crypto either... It seems to be a mystery product that you would like to suggest to be better than bitcoin, perhaps?


(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: If you're trying to promote the adoption of Bitcoin here, 

I am not trying to promote the adoption of bitcoin... that is bullshit.

I am talking about a topic and sharing information about that topic, and yeah, I tend to be quite bullish about bitcoin and I think that it would be a good idea for guys to consider bitcoin as part of their investment strategy, but in the end, guys gotta choose for themselves what they are going to do.

I am promoting the discussion of bitcoin, which is a distinction with a difference.

(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: being obnoxious and dismissive about ongoing regulatory developments is not helping your cause. 

Make your case, then. We have a discussion going on here. Go ahead. I am NOT trying to suggest that I am more enlightened than you about this matter. In fact, seems to me that I was a quite a bit more receptive of your broaching the topic in the beginning, but the more you disclose, the less that you are even attempting to interact with me and the less that you are even attempting to back up your seemingly lame ass speculations. Of course, I was more receptive in the beginning, but when it seems that you are not even able to focus on your own points and then you want to save us from bitcoin without even really knowing anything about bitcoin beyond your conclusory assertions, then yeah, I become a bit more dismissive about whatever it was you were trying to say.

Would you like to try again? Go ahead. I suspect that you do not want to try again because you are too distracted by various off topicness including my supposed style than about providing better evidence to both buttress the case that you were making and/or even to respond to some of the contrary examples that I had provided that seems to undermine your case.

Again, I am having more and more difficulties understanding your bare thesis about the supposed demise of bitcoin when bitcoin seems to be growing and growing and growing, including the ongoing entrance of BIGGER and BIGGER financial players that are providing more finalization tools in bitcoin. Sure some of the goals of the BIG financial players might be to attempt to suppress bitcoin and to try to keep its price down, but only time is going to show whether they are successful or not including whether they can either undermine or negate various BTC price prediction models including 1) stock to flow, 2) four year fractal 3) metcalfe's law that involves networking effects and exponential s-curve adoption and 4) similarly situated models.

So, yeah, you just cannot be looking at ONLY one aspect of the market and trying to proclaim that you really understand the whole thing and that you are trying to correct some kinds of injustices here in this thread, because I am open to your argument if you try to focus ur lil selfie and try to present some decent arguments... but if you are merely some kind of butt hurt no coiner who is hardly even informed on the topic or you are spouting out alt coiner nonsensical talking points or you are potentially pumping some other vague off topic product that supposedly provides passive income then it is more difficult to give you any benefit of the doubt.

If you happen to be a pre-coiner fence sitter who might be open to trying to figure out matters and maybe even revealing a bit more about where you are coming from and to share information, then we might have something to work with. I am certainly NOT afraid to share various aspects of myself or my past strategies in order to discuss the broader topic of bitcoin, but this thread is not about me or my strategies, it is, hopefully, a means to bat around information and for STW guys to be able to better help themselves or to figure out their own positions and stance in regards to bitcoin, including whether or not they are going to get involved in bitcoin and how they might structure and plan such involvement based on available meaningful and hopefully evidence-based information.

Of course, we also would not want the perfect to become the enemy of the good, so I certainly am no fan of over analysis or too much baseless speculation that might cause guys to fail to act, so sometime it is better to start with a modest interactive plan of even investing a small amount in order to get inspired to study or pay attention to the space more. Most of us likely realize that it is easier to pay attention or to learn about some matter when you have some kind of investment into it, even if it is only a tiny amount.


(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: I do understand how Bitcoin fanatics guys like yourself have developed chips on their shoulders due to having to defend Bitcoin at every turn, but you view it in a most unhealthy (almost religious) manner.

You are the one who sounds like a fanatic. I have provided a lot of information in this thread, and you are merely making vague assertions. If you got something besides calling me names based on some kind of extreme categorization, then provide it. I might come out with some tough talk sometimes, but if you got something, then come on. I am waiting .. what is it that you got, exactly?


(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: I wish you luck with your holdings,

To the extent that you give any shits, I have already had a lot of good luck with my holdings, and bitcoin has been a great investment.

I believe that I said several times that I got into bitcoin out of a kind of hope that it might be able to bring up my overall portfolio performance, so by the time I got into bitcoin, my nearly 30 years of various investments had returned around 5.5% per year on average, and sure that is NOT the best in the world, but I thought that I had done pretty well from myself and also had accumulated a pretty decent sized stack of capital.

Of course my first few years in bitcoin, since I started investing at the top of one of the cycles (at $1,200) did not bring greater than 5.5% returns, and I was in the red for quite a bit of that time, but I stayed with it, and that portion of my portfolio kind of exploded the rest of my portfolio in terms of way greater than 5.5% returns even averaging out the first 2-3 lack luster years.

So, bitcoin seems to be a lot more solid of an investment now, as compared to where it was at in 2013 through 2016... and yeah with the passage of time, there is another phenomenon called Lindy effect, which causes more strength to an asset that continues to exist and continues to get built upon. Bitcoin is not really showing weaknesses, in spite of your seeming fearmongering implications.

In other words, I am thinking that it is quite likely that any guy who is able to incorporate bitcoin into his strategy is likely going to have much better results than my 5.5% per year returns. Currently I am advocated that guys can consider longer bitcoin strategies than what I had considered. When I got in, I had considered a minimum of a year, but I was really aiming for at least 2 years and perhaps longer, but I was so uncertain about the whole thing that I was not clear about if I could really plan out much further than that, and there was a lot of uncertainty with the asset. Now, I think that guys can easily consider 4-6 year minimums and maybe even 10 to 15 years. Of course, no guy is going to be locked into his investment, but it still can be a good idea to invest in a way that is longer term, and less based upon shorter term uncertainties, and I think that bitcoin has moved more in the direction of having longer term certainties with the passage of time rather than less certainties, as your seemingly largely speculative governmental regulation uncertainties thesis seems to imply.


(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: and I hope you can improve your ability to turn people on to it rather than off.

I am not trying to sell anything, except maybe that guys have decently good information about bitcoin available to them and a location to discuss decently good bitcoin information. If guys are interested in bitcoin then they will figure it out and not get butt hurt about the tone of any particular poster, including myself. Yes, some guys might need some help with more basic bitcoin information, and there is no problem attempting to share that here, too. Frequently, there is a tendency to confuse bitcoin and various altcoins, and so I can appreciate that sometimes guys might end up going down the shitcoin path and then starting to believe that their chosen shitcoin is either equal to or better than bitcoin or somehow comparable, which sometimes those kinds of discussions might need to be set straight, too.

I regularly provide information in this thread that attempts to be mostly related to bitcoin that I find to be interesting and important. Frequently I will make a blurb of commentary in connection with any post content in order to suggest why I consider the posted information to be interesting or even if I believe that the information is accurate or not from my perspective.

Guys can reach their own conclusions, and I am certainly sure that guys are going to have differing opinions from me on a variety of matters, including some of the guys who are bullish about bitcoin. People who hold bitcoin and invest in bitcoin and believe bitcoin to be the king daddy, do not necessarily agree on everything about bitcoin development or significance of mining or even investment strategies or politics, so I don't have any problem with the posting of other information or taking different twists on information that is posted; however, if the information that is being posted comes off as a bunch of bullshit, I am going to give my perspective on that too. I might be correct or not, but I am not an administrator in this forum, which means that I have hardly any say besides being a contributing member, so I cannot stop members from posting misleading bullshit, except maybe to either point out why I believe that they are posting bullshit or to report such bullshit and hope that it is removed.. or such member might be suspended or banned.. depending on how egregious their conduct is.

There is a lot of bullshit information out there on the bitcoin topic, and any of us can sometimes inadvertently end up posting some information in a thread like this that is not very accurate or even misleading, even if we had not intended to mislead any guys through our having had provided such information. I certainly would appreciate if any guy would point out such bad information to me, too, if he believes that have posted anything that is misleading or deceptive.. and we can go from there to attempt to discuss the matter or maybe even to get the post removed (or we can delete whole posts here, too) if that seems to be the most prudent course forward.
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Here's a tweet of a chart showing mining difficulty that attempts to highlight how it changed after the 2012 and 2016 halvenings in order to attempt to anticipate what might happen after our May 2020 halvening.

https://twitter.com/100trillionUSD/statu...8831030272

[Image: EPIUilAX4AEXJ9s?format=png&name=small]

The assertion is that our current mining difficulty trajectory seems to be tracking the 2016 trajectory.

Here is what Plan B said within the tweet:

>>>>>After 2012 and 2016 #bitcoin halving there was no death spiral or miner capitulation (of course). Network difficulty / hashrate did 10-100x 2yrs before those halvings, and 10-100x 2yrs after halvings. So far 2020 difficulty path tracks 2016 perfectly.<<<<<<<<
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This chart is interesting.  It is asserting that bitcoin is a higher risk, but it is a higher reward too, which would support the concept of bitcoin as an asymmetric bet towards the upside.


[Image: 54d9d2f4b50b157ad505eb23ce938107.png]

Taken from this article

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-r...on-analyst
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I wonder if some of us are gaining confidence that the bottom of this particular cycle is in?

Remember our current local bottom in mid December was $6,424, so we do seem to be creating some distance from that $6,424 - but maybe we cannot really rest with confidence until we break above $10k.. and start playing around with staying above $10k?  Hard to say for sure.

Here's an article that is suggesting UP before down, while asserting that the bottom is likely in.. especially difficult odds to get any BTC below $6k into the future.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/different...y-to-hit-6

By the way, I don't really believe in the sentiment of the article because it seems to be trying to predict the next low points to buy BTC, and I suppose that it assumes that people already bought BTC in the recent $6ks and $7ks... which would cause the thesis to make a bit more sense.  

If a guy has not bought any BTC yet, then his considerations and calculations would likely end up being quite different from the guys who had already bought decent amounts of BTC in the $6ks and $7ks.. perhaps?  Perhaps?  

Another consideration would still be if a guy is in the early BTC accumulation zone or if he has been in the game for a while, and if a guy is in the just getting started mode, then waiting for low BTC prices might not be a great strategy.
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Here's a lot of interesting bitcoin information in the form of a "dashboard"


https://bitcoin.clarkmoody.com/dashboard/

Snapshot of the page looks like this:

[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FNW6nJm0.p...EiphouSN3A]
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(01-25-2020, 03:30 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:
(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote:
(01-25-2020, 07:30 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote: [edited out]
Did you just equate discipline of passive income investing with "Defi?"  Oh dear...  I can't fault you for being unschooled in basic personal finance, but you are more of a project than I initially suspected. 

You are devolving into nonsense talk, Contrarian Expatriate.

You made some vague reference to passive income without really explaining what the fuck you are talking about, and yeah, part of the defi marketing also involves passive income, and surely there are a lot of nonsensical passive income talking points out there.  My response to your vague reference was largely attempting to get you to explain what the fuck you are talking about rather than my making some kind of assertion regarding whether an investment plan seems to be good on a personal investment level.

In any event, even though we might touch a lot upon personal finances in this thread, the thread is not about personal finances, it is about bitcoin... so you are seeming to devolve also into a lot of non-topicalness... and you seem to NOT even be trying to relate your comments to bitcoin.

So, can you at least attempt to bring it back, or are you too far gone into vagueness?

(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: Word of advice....  

Did anyone ask you for advice?  I would ask you to try to figure out what the fuck you are talking about and even try to understand what is bitcoin before coming in with some vague ass speculative assertions and then thereafter going down the giving advice arena when you have hardly made any points at all except for perhaps engaging in a bunch of nonsensical distraction attempts.  Your main point seems to be that you have chosen NOT to invest in bitcoin because you are concerned about regulatory uncertainties, but instead you have chosen to invest in some kind of vague passive income project that you have hardly even described.. maybe you can start a thread on your passive income project, since you are suggesting that it not related to crypto either... It seems to be a mystery product that you would like to suggest to be better than bitcoin, perhaps?


(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: If you're trying to promote the adoption of Bitcoin here, 

I am not trying to promote the adoption of bitcoin... that is bullshit.

I am talking about a topic and sharing information about that topic, and yeah, I tend to be quite bullish about bitcoin and I think that it would be a good idea for guys to consider bitcoin as part of their investment strategy, but in the end, guys gotta choose for themselves what they are going to do.

I am promoting the discussion of bitcoin, which is a distinction with a difference.

(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: being obnoxious and dismissive about ongoing regulatory developments is not helping your cause. 

Make your case, then.  We have a discussion going on here.  Go ahead.  I am NOT trying to suggest that I am more enlightened than you about this matter.   In fact, seems to me that I was a quite a bit more receptive of your broaching the topic in the beginning, but the more you disclose, the less that you are even attempting to interact with me and the less that you are even attempting to back up your seemingly lame ass speculations.  Of course, I was more receptive in the beginning, but when it seems that you are not even able to focus on your own points and then you want to save us from bitcoin without even really knowing anything about bitcoin beyond your conclusory assertions, then yeah, I become a bit more dismissive about whatever it was you were trying to say.

Would you like to try again?  Go ahead. I suspect that you do not want to try again because you are too distracted by various off topicness including my supposed style than about providing better evidence to both buttress the case that you were making and/or even to respond to some of the contrary examples that I had provided that seems to undermine your case.

Again, I am having more and more difficulties understanding your bare thesis about the supposed demise of bitcoin when bitcoin seems to be growing and growing and growing, including the ongoing entrance of BIGGER and BIGGER financial players that are providing more finalization tools in bitcoin.  Sure some of the goals of the BIG financial players might be to attempt to suppress bitcoin and to try to keep its price down, but only time is going to show whether they are successful or not including whether they can either undermine or negate various BTC price prediction models including 1) stock to flow, 2) four year fractal 3) metcalfe's law that involves networking effects and exponential s-curve adoption and 4) similarly situated models.

So, yeah, you just cannot be looking at ONLY one aspect of the market and trying to proclaim that you really understand the whole thing and that you are trying to correct some kinds of injustices here in this thread, because I am open to your argument if you try to focus ur lil selfie and try to present some decent arguments... but if you are merely some kind of butt hurt no coiner who is hardly even informed on the topic or you are spouting out alt coiner nonsensical talking points or you are potentially pumping some other vague off topic product that supposedly provides passive income then it is more difficult to give you any benefit of the doubt.  

If you happen to be a pre-coiner fence sitter who might be open to trying to figure out matters and maybe even revealing a bit more about where you are coming from and to share information, then we might have something to work with.  I am certainly NOT afraid to share various aspects of myself or my past strategies in order to discuss the broader topic of bitcoin, but this thread is not about me or my strategies, it is, hopefully, a means to bat around information and for STW guys to be able to better help themselves or to figure out their own positions and stance in regards to bitcoin, including whether or not they are going to get involved in bitcoin and how they might structure and plan such involvement based on available meaningful and hopefully evidence-based information.  

Of course, we also would not want the perfect to become the enemy of the good, so I certainly am no fan of over analysis or too much baseless speculation that might cause guys to fail to act, so sometime it is better to start with a modest interactive plan of even investing a small amount in order to get inspired to study or pay attention to the space more.  Most of us likely realize that it is easier to pay attention or to learn about some matter when you have some kind of investment into it, even if it is only a tiny amount.


(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: I do understand how Bitcoin fanatics guys like yourself have developed chips on their shoulders due to having to defend Bitcoin at every turn, but you view it in a most unhealthy (almost religious) manner.

You are the one who sounds like a fanatic. I have provided a lot of information in this thread, and you are merely making vague assertions.  If you got something besides calling me names based on some kind of extreme categorization, then provide it.  I might come out with some tough talk sometimes, but if you got something, then come on.  I am waiting .. what is it that you got, exactly?


(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: I wish you luck with your holdings,

To the extent that you give any shits, I have already had a lot of good luck with my holdings, and bitcoin has been a great investment.

I believe that I said several times that I got into bitcoin out of a kind of hope that it might be able to bring up my overall portfolio performance, so by the time I got into bitcoin, my nearly 30 years of various investments had returned around 5.5% per year on average, and sure that is NOT the best in the world, but I thought that I had done pretty well from myself and also had accumulated a pretty decent sized stack of capital.

Of course my first few years in bitcoin, since I started investing at the top of one of the cycles (at $1,200) did not bring greater than 5.5% returns, and I was in the red for quite a bit of that time, but I stayed with it, and that portion of my portfolio kind of exploded the rest of my portfolio in terms of way greater than 5.5% returns even averaging out the first 2-3 lack luster years.  

So, bitcoin seems to be a lot more solid of an investment now, as compared to where it was at in 2013 through 2016... and yeah with the passage of time, there is another phenomenon called Lindy effect, which causes more strength to an asset that continues to exist and continues to get built upon.  Bitcoin is not really showing weaknesses, in spite of your seeming fearmongering implications.  

In other words, I am thinking that it is quite likely that any guy who is able to incorporate bitcoin into his strategy is likely going to have much better results than my 5.5% per year returns.  Currently I am advocated that guys can consider longer bitcoin strategies than what I had considered.  When I got in, I had considered a minimum of a year, but I was really aiming for at least 2 years and perhaps longer, but I was so uncertain about the whole thing that I was not clear about if I could really plan out much further than that, and there was a lot of uncertainty with the asset.  Now, I think that guys can easily consider 4-6 year minimums and maybe even 10 to 15 years.  Of course, no guy is going to be locked into his investment, but it still can be a good idea to invest in a way that is longer term, and less based upon shorter term uncertainties, and I think that bitcoin has moved more in the direction of having longer term certainties with the passage of time rather than less certainties, as your seemingly largely speculative governmental regulation uncertainties thesis seems to imply.


(01-25-2020, 10:49 AM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote: and I hope you can improve your ability to turn people on to it rather than off.

I am not trying to sell anything, except maybe that guys have decently good information about bitcoin available to them and a location to discuss decently good bitcoin information.  If guys are interested in bitcoin then they will figure it out and not get butt hurt about the tone of any particular poster, including myself.  Yes, some guys might need some help with more basic bitcoin information, and there is no problem attempting to share that here, too.  Frequently, there is a tendency to confuse bitcoin and various altcoins, and so I can appreciate that sometimes guys might end up going down the shitcoin path and then starting to believe that their chosen shitcoin is either equal to or better than bitcoin or somehow comparable, which sometimes those kinds of discussions might need to be set straight, too.

I regularly provide information in this thread that attempts to be mostly related to bitcoin that I find to be interesting and important.  Frequently I will make a blurb of commentary in connection with any post content in order to suggest why I consider the posted information to be interesting or even if I believe that the information is accurate or not from my perspective.  

Guys can reach their own conclusions, and I am certainly sure that guys are going to have differing opinions from me on a variety of matters, including some of the guys who are bullish about bitcoin.  People who hold bitcoin and invest in bitcoin and believe bitcoin to be the king daddy, do not necessarily agree on everything about bitcoin development or significance of mining or even investment strategies or politics, so I don't have any problem with the posting of other information or taking different twists on information that is posted; however, if the information that is being posted comes off as a bunch of bullshit, I am going to give my perspective on that too.  I might be correct or not, but I am not an administrator in this forum, which means that I have hardly any say besides being a contributing member, so I cannot stop members from posting misleading bullshit, except maybe to either point out why I believe that they are posting bullshit or to report such bullshit and hope that it is removed.. or such member might be suspended or banned.. depending on how egregious their conduct is.

There is a lot of bullshit information out there on the bitcoin topic, and any of us can sometimes inadvertently end up posting some information in a thread like this that is not very accurate or even misleading, even if we had not intended to mislead any guys through our having had provided such information.   I certainly would appreciate if any guy would point out such bad information to me, too, if he believes that have posted anything that is misleading or deceptive.. and we can go from there to attempt to discuss the matter or maybe even to get the post removed (or we can delete whole posts here, too) if that seems to be the most prudent course forward.
Becoming unglued over a simple discussion is not what healthy people do.  I do hope you get well soon.
Favorite Countries:  Finland, Latvia, Ukraine, Serbia, Montenegro, Georgia, Japan, Argentina.

Countries For Future Travel:  Norway, Sweden, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bosnia, Macedonia, Moldova, Uzbekistan.
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