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RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - Jerusalem Lothario - 08-12-2020

An interesting fact about emergent crypto opportunities: specifically bitcoin. Power grids in frozen conflict zones, or areas where sovereignty is disputed... transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh and north kosovo among others are prime areas for mining setups. I say this because utilities many times are free in these places or at way below market rates. Of course another option is to install such a setup in and old persons house to provide them with heat


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-12-2020

Here's an interesting interview (maybe podcast?) with Chris Blecher on Block Digest (from yesterday) regarding some recent developments in Coinswap on the bitcoin network.

I have only listened to about the first 20 minutes of the interview (but I cannot verify how long is the interview?), and Belcher does seem to have some decently understandable ways of attempting to explain these sometimes complicated technical matters.   I will likely listen to the rest of the interview today, sometime, my anticipated listening time just has to be when I am in a better location for listening.....** but wanted to get this linked (and current) information out to any guys that might want to attempt to get ahead of me ion terms of either digesting the information and giving us a run down... .. . that's not likely to happen (a little attempt at reverse psychology, here.......hahahahahaha.)

Here is also a github release from late May 2020 that appears to have been updated in the past few days, too.

https://gist.github.com/chris-belcher/9144bd57a91c194e332fb5ca371d0964

**By the way, I don't really like the interface of the linked-above Castbox that I had been listening to through my web browser, and so I was looking for whether I could locate the interview on some other platform, but so far, I have not been able to find any kind of link to such potentially better platform for listening to this interview. 


Edit:  Here's another article on the coinswap topic from May 31, 2020.

https://decrypt.co/30756/bitcoin-privacy-coinswap-chris-belcher


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - Jerusalem Lothario - 08-12-2020

It will be interesting to see if the central banks become more crypto friendly. I know in the US regulators loathe bitcoin. But at the same time, the chinese are looking at getting into the crypto scene with the full states endorsement


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-12-2020

(08-12-2020, 02:55 PM)Jerusalem Lothario Wrote: An interesting fact about emergent crypto opportunities: specifically bitcoin. Power grids in frozen conflict zones, or areas where sovereignty is disputed... transnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh and north kosovo among others are prime areas for mining setups. I say this because utilities many times are free in these places or at way below market rates. Of course another option is to install such a setup in and old persons house to provide them with heat

Surely, I am not opposed to any kind of idea to attempt to get BTC for low cost or close to low cost by either mining them or even through other innovative means to attempt to make a quick buck.

However, with bitcoin, it remains a likely ongoingly bad-ass and asymmetric bet investment, in part, because guys should be able to figure out ways to invest in BTC and even pay a premium for accumulating their coins, but still end up making a shit ton of money by investing for a long time and through normal prudent BTC accumulation approaches, such as DCA, buying on dips, hodl.

You, JL, seem to be focused on attempting to turn over a quick profit, including failing and refusing to appreciate that either bitcoin remains a good ongoing asymmetric bet investment and that you could have likely been somewhere in the millionaire status (merely from your bitcoins - as I already mentioned in my previous post, with a somewhat aggressive DCA approach of $222 per week over the past 6 years, or something like that).

Of course, do what you will in terms of focusing on ways to attempt to get BTC for free or for low cost when in fact figuring out ways to buy BTC, and acting on that information, is also a very good approach to our current situation of ongoing likelihood of BTC continuing to price appreciate in the coming years... (if not sooner).

(08-12-2020, 03:29 PM)Jerusalem Lothario Wrote: It will be interesting to see if the central banks become more crypto friendly. I know in the US regulators loathe bitcoin. But at the same time, the chinese are looking at getting into the crypto scene with the full states endorsement

Of course, there continues to be a decent amount of jurisdictional variance, but I doubt that the Chinese are more friendly to bitcoin (or crypto as you say) than other jurisdictions, such as the USA.

It seems to be a pretty damned BIG deal that the Office of Comptroller in the USA has just recently announced/clarified within the last week (and mentioned in an earlier post from me in this thread)) that Banks are going to be able to hold crypto assets, and that is a pretty BIG deal in terms of an outwardly showing of non-hostility towards crypto... Yet, of course, I will still be a bit skeptical regarding how the whole matter might start playing out, and sure if banks get into the practice of fucking around with various shitcoins and pumping them, then we might have some short term problems - even if it ends up biting them in the ass because they fail and refuse to focus on king-daddy bitcoin, perhaps? We cannot know for sure how some of the possible distractions into shitcoins might play out in the coming years..., even though we can appreciate that king daddy bitcoin remains the ONLY coin that really has soundness in its underlying principles that might end up punishing the fuck out of peeps or institutions that attempt to fuck around with it and bet in the wrong direction in terms of how they play their manipulation shenanigans.


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-13-2020

If you recognize bitcoin to be better than gold, then where does bitcoin fit within the below depicted picture?

Maybe outside of it, as a competitor?  Incentives in bitcoin make it more difficult to manipulate because bitcoin is easier to verify and also easier to demand possession with little to no cost of possessing the bitcoin (the private keys).

[Image: EfHEtlJU4AA7lLg?format=jpg&name=small]

https://twitter.com/breedlove22/status/1293517596185079812?s=21

Explanation from the tweet (quoted):

>>>>>A pyramid scheme is an investment scam based on a hierarchical setup of network marketing, in which higher layer participants profit at the expense of those lower down. Fiat currencies are pyramid schemes erected by central banks, who actively manipulate the price of gold.<<<<<


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-13-2020

Even though many of us realized that there were going to be fungibility challenges in bitcoin, there are current incentives and dynamics in bitcoin to attempt to keep your bitcoins clean.... some of the considerations described in the below-linked article from today. 


https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-gold-staying-clean

Here's a teasing snip from the article:

>>>>>>
Bitcoin suffers from neither a purity problem nor a counterfeiting problem. The network of independent bitcoin validators ensures that every bitcoin is indeed a 100% real bitcoin.

But it does have its own unique quirk. The entire blockchain is public, so the flow of bitcoins can be tracked. And trackability means some bitcoin addresses may not be as good as others – they may hold funds that were stolen from an exchange, or used to pay ransom, or have been mixed by an anonymizer. These aren’t the sorts of bitcoin addresses that a sophisticated investor wants to be associated with.
<<<<


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-14-2020

For anyone wanting to go down the Schnorr signature rabbithole here is an interesting blog link that is pretty damned technical, and maybe a bit too much for me.


https://suredbits.com/introduction-to-schnorr-signatures/


There are other sections on the websitye/blog, too.

On the website these have links:

>>>>>>>>>
Categories
Recent Posts <<<<<<<<


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-14-2020

A few days ago, Kraken published a report that is based on analysis through July (I suppose end of the second quarter), and they present quite a bit of information of the volatility trends, and anticipate a decent possibility for 50% to 200% increases in BTC prices in the coming months.

https://blog.kraken.com/post/5888/c-c-c-combo-breaker-kraken-releases-july-2020-bitcoin-volatility-report/

The above-link gives a summary, but all of the charts of the report are available by clicking on the "view full report" (16 pages - easily readable) link to give a lot of pretty charts... and of course further analysis, too.

Here's a snip-it from the summary page:

>>>>>
A number of signals point to possible higher volatility and higher prices in the months ahead.

  • In late July, Bitcoin broke out of a large, 2.5-year “pennant” formation, a move many believe could indicate the start of the next bull cycle. Further, price settled above $10,500, making a higher-high that added support to the upward trend.

  • Now that we are above $11,000, Bitcoin is trading in territory it has only been in for about 2.5% of its entire history. This may lead to higher volatility and higher prices as Bitcoin unlocks new levels of support and resistance and navigates uncharted waters.

  • On 12 separate occasions, Bitcoin’s annualized volatility bottomed between 15% – 30% before climbing, on average, to 140%. Considering that, and the fact that Bitcoin set a 21-month volatility low of 23% on July 24, volatility could exceed 100% as bitcoin rallies somewhere between +50% and +200% in the months ahead.

  • August is historically the third most volatile month on record with a 9-year average annualized volatility of 88%. If the pattern holds, we can expect volatility to continue trending higher next month.
    <<<<



RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-14-2020

Funny thing about publicly traded companies is that sometimes they can have some pretty BIG investors, and it is not always clear why one company might be investing into another company - but the investments of the company, such as the Microstrategy decision to invest into bitcoin will provide exposure (somewhat indirect) to bitcoin for the investors, therein.

Here's a recent article points out who are some of the BIGGER investors in Microstrategy:

 https://cointelegraph.com/news/blackrock-vanguard-indirectly-hold-bitcoin-via-microstrategy-investment

The below chart (that I got from the article) mentions the top 10 investors, but only shows the top four investors (which all seem to be financial product companies):

[Image: 4f0710065f25d77dff700bcb8276655b.png]

Of course, this information continues to be in the news a lot, and there is likely going to be some copy cat companies (or even rich individuals) that decide to take a similar approach.. Seems that only the public companies would have an obligation to provide some kind of announcement regarding what they have done - and surely, they have some discretion regarding how they word their announcement - and who knows if they might get into trouble if it appears that they might be announcing in a way that is pumping/dumping their stocks?  I am sure most of the publicly traded companies are exercising a decent amount of diligence in consulting with their attorneys regarding how to make their announcements.  

Frequently, we will find private individuals announcing their investment after they had already taken a position, and I suppose that they could get in trouble too, if they were to seem to be pumping a stock .. but bitcoin is NOT a stock.. so we have some wild, wild west aspects in terms of which kinds of bitcoin investment related announcements might fall under legal/regulatory scrutiny.


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-15-2020

Here's a pretty short video interview (less than 5 minutes) to show that more and more traditional investors are coming over to bitcoin in terms of hedging and/or speculating.

https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idRCV008LQI


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-15-2020

(08-15-2020, 06:20 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote: Here's a pretty short video interview (less than 5 minutes) to show that more and more traditional investors are coming over to bitcoin in terms of hedging and/or speculating.

https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/idRCV008LQI

Interesting article from yesterday attempting to analyze whether bitcoin might be amongst the safest of "reserve" assets.

https://blog.knoxcustody.com/bitcoin-safest-reserve-asset/

We might be entering a new era, boyz.   Wink


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-15-2020

It appears that August 15 has been an interesting date in BTC price history:

Quote:

>>>>>

2010 - $0.07    
2011 - $11   
2012 - $12      
2013 - $98      
2014 - $520   
2015 - $266  
2016 - $567         
2017 - $4,449     
2018 - $6,212      
2019 - $9,973     

2020 - $11,894     

<<<<<

Only in 2014 has the BTC price been lower than the previous year, even though 2012 just barely beat 2011 and 2016 just barely beat 2014.


https://twitter.com/coincornerdanny/status/1294600651884900352


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-16-2020

Here's a link to a series of seven tweets with charts to attempt to show where BTC is at, currently.  I don't even proclaim to understand what all of the squiggly lines mean, even though they are squiggly lines on charts that appear to have different squiggly lines from other charts that I had seen.

 https://twitter.com/kenoshaking/status/1294894436934201344

[Image: EfhhXemXYAEbOs9?format=png&name=small]

Quote:
>>>>
4) Zoomed-in MPL show just how atypical and chaotic 2019 and 2020 have been for Bitcoin. Major crossover events of such frequency are unprecedented in over 10 years.<<<

[Image: Efhh3_MWsAQQOS_?format=jpg&name=small]


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-16-2020

Greyscale is a pretty large holder of BTC, and they are claiming to have had their best week ever in terms of additional BTC accumulation.

They are an investment firm that manages the GBTC holdings - so those are not personal holdings, but instead custodial holdings.

Still an interesting update.

https://cointelegraph.com/news/grayscale-investments-enjoys-its-best-week-ever-after-national-ad-blitz/amp

Quote (pretty much the whole article):

>>>>>>
Grayscale Investments had its best fundraising week in history following an ad blitz on a number of major television networks. According to the company’s CEO Barry Silbert, Grayscale netted $217 million in investments in the days following the campaign.

The firm’s Bitcoin Trust Fund was the biggest contributor to the success, adding  14,422.01411512 Bitcoin (BTC) at a value of $167,932,466, according to an SEC filing. The firm is currently holding 409,131 BTC, essentially removing it from circulation.
<<<<


Here's another older article from about 6 days ago:

https://cointelegraph.com/magazine/2020/08/10/grayscale-ad-digital-currency-history-of-money/amp


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - billydingdong - 08-16-2020

Can't say I ever saw this happening.

Bitcoins are now being tokenized on Ethereum faster than they're being minted.

Quote:Since Sunday, 1,043 more bitcoins were tokenized through Wrapped Bitcoin than were actually created by bitcoin miners as the Ethereum-based decentralized finance (DeFi) boom shows no signs of abating.

About 900 bitcoins are mined per day, given the current issuance rate of 6.25 bitcoins minted per block and the target 10-minute block time.

https://www.coindesk.com/wrapped-bitcoin-tokenized-faster-mined-defi

As of now, there's now more than 25x Bitcoin locked in wBTC (an ERC token with backed by 1:1 Bitcoin holdings) than there is on the Lightning Network, haha. 

Bitcoin is not only getting smoked in the DeFi boom. It's getting swallowed up altogether.


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-16-2020

(08-16-2020, 05:00 PM)billydingdong Wrote: Can't say I ever saw this happening.

Bitcoins are now being tokenized on Ethereum faster than they're being minted.

Quote:Since Sunday, 1,043 more bitcoins were tokenized through Wrapped Bitcoin than were actually created by bitcoin miners as the Ethereum-based decentralized finance (DeFi) boom shows no signs of abating.

About 900 bitcoins are mined per day, given the current issuance rate of 6.25 bitcoins minted per block and the target 10-minute block time.

https://www.coindesk.com/wrapped-bitcoin-tokenized-faster-mined-defi

As of now, there's now more than 25x Bitcoin locked in wBTC (an ERC token with backed by 1:1 Bitcoin holdings) than there is on the Lightning Network, haha. 

Bitcoin is not only getting smoked in the DeFi boom. It's getting swallowed up altogether.

Well with any kind of custody solution, there are some dangers and risk.

So just think about it.

If you hold your BTC directly, you have the most secure and powerful mechanism that the world has ever seen, right at your fingertips and under your absolute control, but instead of holding onto your keys and your power, you choose to have some 14 year old snot noses hold your keys in order that you can produce "income."

Do you believe that is going to end well for dumb fucks making those kinds of choices to put their BTC at that kind of risk?

Sure, we cannot stop others from being dumb, but we can attempt to better understand the asset that we hold and attempt to understand that the most power that we have is to attempt to HOLD and maintain a vast majority of our keys.....   sure maybe if we have 100 or 200 BTC or larger quantities, then maybe we could put a small amount of those coins in some kind of dividend earning custodian, but generally speaking the risk would not be justified - especially also, since bitcoin is designed to pump forever, and it is quite likely that BTC value is going to appreciate at much higher levels than the third-party custodian (including the wrapped BTC custodian - scammers) are going to be paying... 

In other words, guys should be careful, not to get tempted into placing much if any of their BTC (their autonomy power) in the hands of third parties who have decent incentives to either not safeguard their BTC at the same level of the rightful owner of the BTC or to exit scam with the BTC.

So, yes billy, there are all kinds of new ways that scammers are attempting to figure out ways to separate dumb fucks from their coins, and yes the number of coins that some of the scammers might end up getting could well be a large number of coins, and that does not reflect badly on BTC but it does show that a lot of people do tend to either be too greedy for their own good, or just plain dumb fucks.  BTC is not going to give any shits if 10% of its supply or some larger number were to move from dumb fucks to scammers.. BTC still ends up being the more valuable coin, so hopefully guys, including you billy, don't get fooled into believing that they should be putting much if any of their BTC at risk with the various scams, including putting BTC on an insecure-as-fuck chain such as ETH.  That would not only be dumb, but real dumb.


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - bootknocker - 08-16-2020

I made some money in ETH when it was single digits (under $10) and got out when it hit around $800 the first time. I've used BTC for a few transactions/day trading now that its easy asf to purchase and sell so I'm not an opponent.

The problem is this: even if every 3rd world shit hole country on Earth adopted Bitcoin and/or cryptocurrency as their sole currency it wouldn't put a scratch in the global economy. Cryptocurrency may never disappear but it already has and is still going to end poorly for a lot of users. Rn, I would much rather have $23k USD in the bank than holding 2 bitcoins in cold storage.


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-16-2020

(08-16-2020, 08:23 PM)bootknocker Wrote: I made some money in ETH when it was single digits (under $10) and got out when it hit around $800 the first time. I've used BTC for a few transactions/day trading now that its easy asf to purchase and sell so I'm not an opponent.

The problem is this: even if every 3rd world shit hole country on Earth adopted Bitcoin and/or cryptocurrency as their sole currency it wouldn't put a scratch in the global economy.  Cryptocurrency may never disappear but it already has and is still going to end poorly for a lot of users. Rn, I would much rather have $23k USD in the bank than holding 2 bitcoins in cold storage.

First of all, this is a bitcoin thread, so I would like to presume that you are focusing your comments about bitcoin, rather some lame-ass amorphous crypto concept.  Of course, if you attempt to focus your comment on such an amorphous lame-ass crypto concept, then it is very difficult to understand what the fuck you are talking about.

We know that there are all kinds of bullshit smoke and mirrors in regards to crypto pump and dumps scams.

Do you want to repost your comment, proposal and/or question and to direct what is going on with bitcoin as compared with the USD, equities, gold etc?   Do you know what proposition bitcoin is attempting to make, especially in terms of its better than gold kind of design?  Do you understand the better than gold kind of design angle in regards to bitcoin because your first paragraph was recognizing that you understand bitcoin as a means to make payments, but that means to make a payment angle is ONLY part of what bitcoin has to offer.  

Of course, being able to make a payment with bitcoin is important, especially if someone would want to transmit anywhere in the world and almost any amount without having to ask permission or to go through any kind of middle man, and can you really appreciate what that kind of ability to transfer value means?  How about shutting down bitcoin?  Sure of course, again, we can get distracted by the various scams and the fucktwat shitcoin projects, but don't be letting that nonsense distract you because those various get rich quick schemes or whatever other misleading scams they are trying to pull are largely riding on the underlying security and cover that bitcoin allows them to be able to fuck around with their nonsense.. but merely because bitcoin is an underlying security blanket for the various shitcoins and shit projects does not in any kind of meaningful way take away from the actual underlying value of bitcoin in terms of the various network effects that continue to build upon bitcoin.. and really think about it, whether we are talking about bitcoin (or even including the various shitcoin projects into our calculations) we are still looking at less than 1% world adoption.. whether talking about people (such as retail) or even if we were to extrapolate out some of the early stages of some institutional attempts that are entering into bitcoin investing and/or hedging. 

Anyhow, if you want to present your question and your analysis again, but get your head out of the "crypto" distraction nonsense, then maybe you might be able to focus and to figure out if you really understand what the fuck is bitcoin.. if you cannot figure out the point that I am making, then likely you don't really understand what bitcoin is and/or what bitcoin is offering, exactly.


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - bootknocker - 08-17-2020

^^^^^

you didn't really address the point I previously made. 

bitcoin became a shadow of its former self years ago. 1% now owns 40%+ of the holdings and this doesn't include the tens of thousands of people who already became millionaires. the govt fucked it and will continue to fuck it bc people and the govt are idiots.

It's a great concept that will soon be offered by every bank. The antithesis of everything it was created for. Ofc theres lots of possibilities so if you want to risk it all or just spread your info no one is stopping you. it's just another asset class like commodities with volatility through the fucking roof and around the clock bot volume. just hope you didn't get in at $17- $20k mark and that's why you're ranting.


RE: The Bitcoin Thread (price and other bitcoin related topics) - JayJuanGee - 08-17-2020

(08-17-2020, 06:49 AM)bootknocker Wrote: ^^^^^
you didn't really address the point I previously made. 

Generally, I do not try to avoid any validly made points, so likely I was largely trying to seek clarification that we are talking about bitcoin and not some amorphous other concept... which I believe that I largely clarified in my other post.


(08-17-2020, 06:49 AM)bootknocker Wrote: bitcoin became a shadow of its former self years ago. 1% now owns 40%+ of the holdings and this doesn't include the tens of thousands of people who already became millionaires.

I have my doubts regarding if there are actually facts to back those kinds of assertions that you are making - even though overall, on a general level they are arguably valid concerns.

So, sure, if you are suggesting that bitcoin is a kind of ponzi scheme in which the early adopters are largely advantaged, while the late-comers are merely coming in to bitcoin and paying off the early adopters, but the ponzi scheme is not holding, I really doubt that there is anything close to enough empirical evidence to actually support those kinds of assertions.

Bitcoin has a lot of network effects and ongoing growth, whether you recognize it or not.  Sure there are some folks who got rich as fuck from bitcoin, but people are continuing to get rich as fuck from bitcoin, too, and there are a lot of longer term BTC holders that are not selling their coins, whether the BTC price goes down or the BTC price goes shooting up.  Sure, some of those folks are going to cash out some or all of their coins as the BTC price goes up, but you are likely deluded if you believe that bitcoin is merely supported by the new money that is coming in and bitcoin is a bunch of smoke and mirrors.  You are failing /refusing to recognize facts on the ground if you think that the actual bitcoin developments support that kind of perspective.

The hashrate in bitcoin reflects real developments of both decentralized security and industries that are putting money into bitcoin computing power.  Those are not smoke and mirror developments, but they represent processes that even large financial institutions or governments will have difficult as fuck times to try to direct, diminish or shut down.


(08-17-2020, 06:49 AM)bootknocker Wrote: the govt fucked it and will continue to fuck it bc people and the govt are idiots.

If the government could shut down bitcoin, it would, but there are a lot of difficulties in actually achieving the shutting down or undermining of bitcoin, and sure various kinds of tactics and attacks have been attempted, and sure some of the current attacks relate to KYC (know your customer) and AML (anti-money laundering) requirements, but they are not really controlling bitcoin, even if there are more inconveniences now than there had been in the past, but bitcoin still remains powerful as fuck.  Try sending $20k, $50k, $1 million, $10 million, $100 million through various jurisdictions around the world (let's say multiple hops), and bitcoin is really the only one that allows you to accomplish such objective without getting permission and to do it quickly and at low cost.  Do you believe that you could accomplish such objective with some other asset class with confidence such as gold, fiat or even some other crypto?  Who can carry out this kind of sending in bitcoin?  anyone who has such value.. even some person who was homeless before he stumbled across the BTC wallet.

You don't believe that there is any kind of powerful value in that ability to either control or send value?  What other asset you going to do that with?  Go on, tell me... What are the trade offs?  Does bitcoin add any value?  Can you see any value or not?

(08-17-2020, 06:49 AM)bootknocker Wrote: It's a great concept that will soon be offered by every bank.

Do you believe that there might be some kind of risk by holding or transmitting value through any bank that allows you to accomplish such?  Do you believe that bitcoin offers anything different, or that the bank can offer the exact same product, or something close to bitcoin?  Can you see how bitcoin is different, or you still don't see it?  Hopefully,  you can make some kind of argument regarding how what the product that the bank is offering (or going to offer) is the same as bitcoin?  I am ready for your likely to be lame argument.

(08-17-2020, 06:49 AM)bootknocker Wrote: The antithesis of everything it was created for.

You think that bitcoin is merely a payment system?  Hey, if you believe that those various other products that are in the works or are being created are the same as bitcoin or that they offer competition to bitcoin, then sure, you can go and invest in those products, and with the passage of time, we will see if bitcoin continues to increase in value or if bitcoin is competed away like some kind of passing fad... With the passage of time, we will find out if your theories about supposed similar products play out, and we will find out if people who invested in bitcoin are going to be gaining in value more than these other investments or not.  

You may want to hedge into bitcoin, just in case, but hey, if you believe that bitcoin is not really offering anything special that cannot be offered by various traditional financial institutions or governments, then sure, don't make any investment into bitcoin.. keep your investment in those various traditional asset classes and we will see how the value will play out in the coming years.. and if your products end up eating into bitcoin's lack of a value proposition.. that you seem to be theorizing to exist.

(08-17-2020, 06:49 AM)bootknocker Wrote: Ofc theres lots of possibilities so if you want to risk it all or just spread your info no one is stopping you.

I have been posting in this forum for a bit over a year, and I was posting in the BTC thread on RVF since late 2013, and sure my views over the years have evolved a bit, but largely, in recent times, I have been suggesting that guys figure out their own investment thesis and that they tailor investments to their own situation, with an initial starting goal as putting 1% to 10% of their quasi-liquid investments into bitcoin.  Of course, guys need to figure this shit out for themselves, including if they are more risk averse they would put in less and if they were more bullish about bitcoin then they would gravitate towards putting in more, so in the end, guys have to decide for themselves, and I have never asserted that anyone put all into bitcoin or to risk it all.. that's a bunch of bullshit to even suggest that I even believe in any kind of gambling
approach to investing.. whether we are talking about how to apportion bitcoin allocations or other aspects of investing or my discussions related to bitcoin.

(08-17-2020, 06:49 AM)bootknocker Wrote: it's just another asset class like commodities with volatility through the fucking roof and around the clock bot volume.

Again. I hope that you are talking about bitcoin and not devolving into talking about some other amorphous concept.

Of course, bitcoin has been volatile as fuck since its 2009 inception (and at least since it had a market price in about mid-2010), and I have only been in bitcoin since late 2013, and bitcoin is not like other commodities because it is both an immature asset class and it is distinguishable from a lot of commodities in terms of what it is offering.

Bitcoin actually offers something that has not been previously offered by any asset class, and it solves some digital scarcity problems in a kind of way that built upon existing technology (at the time of the 2008 white paper), but continues to develop through consensus updates, too.  

So sure, in your mind (and perhaps in the minds of a decent number of other people) bitcoin might seem similar to some other asset classes, but it is still really early in terms of its level of adoption, but of course, there have been some increased financialization attempts in recent years, too.. and those financialization efforts are still early in their adoption into bitcoin with some attempts at some of the earlier players to frontrun their own investments into bitcoin and sometimes their institutions front run into bitcoin, too and sure some of them may attempt to manipulate bitcoin as well, but manipulation is not any kind of stranger to any relatively small asset class that has potential for profit through manipulation attempts (that may or may not end up being successful), which likely markets and market sizes are going to continue to evolve, become more sophisticated and with likely greater difficulties to manipulate BTC and BTC prices as BTC's marketcap grows and more and more liquidation venues continue to come available and to grow larger with the passage of time.

There are some innovations in regards to how bitcoin is traded, too, and yes it has largely been a 24/7 market once it had gotten a market in 2010 and thereafter that market (and available venues to trade or to liquidate) had continued to grow and to develop some of its own quirks that are likely having influences on aspects of traditional trade markets too, as bitcoin has gotten bigger.

Volatility is a kind of feature in any smaller level asset class such as bitcoin, and bitcoin does remain small and has largely been volatile through its history and is likely to continue to be volatile, so volatility is a thing that goes with the bitcoin territory.. so sure you are largely correct about bitcoin being volatile, but there are also mitigation attempts that guys can make with their bitcoin investment and there are also a lot of currently credible BTC price prediction models that largely show the likelihood that bitcoin's volatility is going to continue to be in the upwards direction, which of course nothing is guaranteed, but there are also ways to both mitigate and to take advantage of such likely phenomenons of volatility when you better know the space and the basis behind the various models including better understanding BTC fundamentals (which takes a while to actually study and to attempt to understand what bitcoin is and its various fundamentals in the midst of a lot of misinformation that continues to exist and get propagated in the space).


(08-17-2020, 06:49 AM)bootknocker Wrote: just hope you didn't get in at $17- $20k mark and that's why you're ranting.

You seem to be throwing out a strawman argument, here, bootknocker.

There are not too many people who either got into bitcoin in such $17k to $20k price range and sat on their hands for 2.5 years, or that actually fear that  BTC prices are not going to be returning to those levels, and likely going to be returning to even higher levels in the near future... again nothing is guaranteed... 

Sure you can create strawman arguments about hypothetical investors who are purportedly under water and desperate with their bitcoin investment, but there remain NOT too many of those kinds of hypothetical people, except probably really dumbass ones.

Of course, there are likely BTC traders who screwed themselves and there are also a decent number of people who got distracted into getting into shitcoins, even though they probably should have attempted to remain more focused on bitcoin, but we should not let losing traders or distracted folks cause us to have our own fuzzy thinking about various aspects of what bitcoin has to offer or about our own thinking of our own various factors that should be causing us to consider whether to invest into bitcoin and how much.

Surely I have continued to suggest that guys both figure out their own situation and then tailor their investment into bitcoin, if they are going to do it, in accordance with their own situation.. which would include considering factors such as their cash flow, other investments, view of bitcoin as compared with other assets, risk tolerance, timeline, and time and ability to plan, learn, strategize and tweak along the way.. including whether to accumulate a BTC position and how much BTC to accumulate and how, to trade BTC and how and to reallocate their BTC and/or their other investments and how.